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Old 12-11-2014, 17:07   #46
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The controller would not help much. You need about 800 psi to push water through the membrane. The step action pump is only 30 psi.
I was thinking more along the lines of using the stepper as a pump to drive the hydraulics. The multiplying action of the hydraulics would easily provide the 800PSI necessary to force the salt water through the membrane.
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Old 12-11-2014, 17:11   #47
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

I am certainly looking at the stepper pump as an emergency manual bilge pump instead of a hand operated one. In an emergency, such as the failure of all on board electrics, one would be able to both hand steer and pump water as necessary without leaving the helm station.
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Old 12-11-2014, 17:25   #48
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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I was thinking more along the lines of using the stepper as a pump to drive the hydraulics. The multiplying action of the hydraulics would easily provide the 800PSI necessary to force the salt water through the membrane.
That is why I suggested a Spectra maker before.. The Clark pump would take care of the step up and require no power as its a passive device.
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Old 12-11-2014, 17:31   #49
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

Just had a conversation with my brother-in-law last night over dinner.. The guy owns a pump business building custom pumps for the wine indusrty as well as foster farms for pumping chicken parts throu piping....
Now I know were not pumping chickens or food products but his experance does have some merrit.. When I mentioned opperation of a honda gen-set to run a 110 electric motor to opperate a cat pump to produce preasure... He kinda cocked his head and said WHY.. and his reply was if I was going to use a Honda motor, just attach it to a iron hydraulic pump and set it up with food grade seals..
Not saying this is the answer but for someone that works with pumps of all types daily, he seamed to have the answers I was looking for..
His only concern was to install a relief valve set at the prescribed preasure so you didnt blow the membrane apart.........
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Old 12-11-2014, 17:59   #50
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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Originally Posted by Chris66 View Post
I am certainly looking at the stepper pump as an emergency manual bilge pump instead of a hand operated one. In an emergency, such as the failure of all on board electrics, one would be able to both hand steer and pump water as necessary without leaving the helm station.
You should be able to do that manually right now.
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Old 12-11-2014, 18:29   #51
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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Just had a conversation with my brother-in-law last night over dinner.. The guy owns a pump business building custom pumps for the wine indusrty as well as foster farms for pumping chicken parts throu piping....
Now I know were not pumping chickens or food products but his experance does have some merrit.. When I mentioned opperation of a honda gen-set to run a 110 electric motor to opperate a cat pump to produce preasure... He kinda cocked his head and said WHY.. and his reply was if I was going to use a Honda motor, just attach it to a iron hydraulic pump and set it up with food grade seals..
Not saying this is the answer but for someone that works with pumps of all types daily, he seamed to have the answers I was looking for..
His only concern was to install a relief valve set at the prescribed preasure so you didnt blow the membrane apart.........
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... Sorry.. I seriously laughed out loud when I read your post.. I kept thinking, geeze this reminds me of something... Oh ya, the RAINMAN water maker.. You can find an advertisement for it in the middle of the page. Look at the Petrol version.
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Old 12-11-2014, 18:37   #52
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Just had a conversation with my brother-in-law last night over dinner.. The guy owns a pump business building custom pumps for the wine indusrty as well as foster farms for pumping chicken parts throu piping....
Now I know were not pumping chickens or food products but his experance does have some merrit.. When I mentioned opperation of a honda gen-set to run a 110 electric motor to opperate a cat pump to produce preasure... He kinda cocked his head and said WHY.. and his reply was if I was going to use a Honda motor, just attach it to a iron hydraulic pump and set it up with food grade seals..
Not saying this is the answer but for someone that works with pumps of all types daily, he seamed to have the answers I was looking for..
His only concern was to install a relief valve set at the prescribed preasure so you didnt blow the membrane apart.........

Reason is if you drive the pump directly, you have a single use device, with a
generator you can charge batteries when your making water, or on a hot buggy
night run a 5,000 BTU AC, or watch TV, run power tools when making repairs, all
kinds of things
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Old 12-11-2014, 19:37   #53
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

A large counter weight / wheel would go a long way toward storing energy for a pump. Just a thought.
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Old 16-11-2014, 10:59   #54
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

Jesus, I opened pandoras box. I work too much to keep up with you guys.

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I don't think a patent is holding back cheap watermakers.
The OP clearly has not done his research, others have built cheap watermakers already, and btw, anytime 'Aurduino' is mentioned the project has got amateur and fail written all over it.
Nimble... im going to start with you.

Yes, I could use a honeywell controller or some other major manufacturers PLC, but that would be forgetting the original point: That the user can rebuild at sea without special equipment. Commercial controllers all require special interfaces and have their own language. Arduino has a huge community of users supporting it. Raspberry pi would also be an option. I can send out a duplicate board, instructions to reprogram and any laptop will get the job done. Coincidently, I have one hanging around. Also, this is not intended to be a highly commercialized product. Its intended to address a niche market inside of the, so very small market that is present. My goal is to lower entry costs generally.

Now, coming back to
Quote:
One of my water makers failed. Since it is wholly-redundant and costs about $10G to replace, I am going to replace with something different this time. In exploring alternatives, I realize how simple the entire system is. The only complexity is the controller, and controlling with an Arudino would be trivial. I do think you need 800 psi, and 600 - 800 gpd, but I believe that can be achieved for less than $2500. PM me if you want me to pay for your prototype.
You may have a PM coming your way. A conversation with a colleague prompted a re-thinking of the fundamental method of pressurizing the system. The primary cost challenge in these systems are high pressure. I need to work a few equations and size some parts to see if its feasible and what sort of life cycle I could see on parts.
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Old 16-11-2014, 11:24   #55
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

I guess I am not understanding the purpose of the Arduino. Do you intend the unit to be automatized with auto backflushing, valve switching, TDS sensing, etc?

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Old 16-11-2014, 12:08   #56
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

My first thought was to use the controller to monitor the systems health and prevent a failed system from dumping saltwater into clean tanks. Also monitoring filter health via system pressures.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 16-11-2014, 12:33   #57
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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My first thought was to use the controller to monitor the systems health and prevent a failed system from dumping saltwater into clean tanks. Also monitoring filter health via system pressures.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
get the basic system working. That is the hard part. Your first ideas of using tap water RO systems were just plain wrong, so you have some work to do.

have your prototype working, with acceptable power consumption, good reliability and low vibration / noise emission at a competitive price tag. Only then you can think about automating and monitoring it. As a techie guy this seems to be the most interesting part for you (me, too!), but it's completely unimportant if you don't get the first part the design right. And if you have the first part right, the monitoring and contrl is still unimportant and for many of us completely optional.

The only market that I see is for a cheap energy efficient 12v system. Be it a very efficient conventional system or a clark pump or some other energy recovery system.
I really don't see a need for another 110/220V system as there are enough relatively cheap options.
The most extreme thing I read about it was a guy who built his 220V RO system for about 550 Euro using the high pressure pump from a 40 Euro Karcher and lots of used parts off ebay. This unit is loud as hell and needs replacement every few months but he is happy.
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Old 16-11-2014, 13:00   #58
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

Well, I wonder if you may be able to use a brine water system using a double filter system. If your pressure mechanism is cheap enough, perhaps its possible to run a double pump system. Pump through the first RO with a brine water filter, reject 75%, pump into a secondary holding tank, cycle that fluid across the second brine water filter until its salinity reaches a rejection rate, then dump, refill and restart he process. Could be accomplished with a single pump and a couple solenoid valves with a single filter.

Does high salt content destroy a brine water filter or just pass through at a rate higher than its rated rejection rate?
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Old 16-11-2014, 14:04   #59
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Just had a conversation with my brother-in-law last night over dinner.. The guy owns a pump business building custom pumps for the wine indusrty as well as foster farms for pumping chicken parts throu piping....
Now I know were not pumping chickens or food products but his experance does have some merrit.. When I mentioned opperation of a honda gen-set to run a 110 electric motor to opperate a cat pump to produce preasure... He kinda cocked his head and said WHY.. and his reply was if I was going to use a Honda motor, just attach it to a iron hydraulic pump and set it up with food grade seals..
Not saying this is the answer but for someone that works with pumps of all types daily, he seamed to have the answers I was looking for..
His only concern was to install a relief valve set at the prescribed preasure so you didnt blow the membrane apart.........
So now a guy pumping chickens is the new expert on how to build a better water maker Hp Pump.... All the engineers and water maker experts with the HUGE profit incentive to make a better water maker are all just Bozos overlooking a better and cheaper way to get sea water to 800PSI with off the shelf technology that is cheap and durable.....
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Old 16-11-2014, 14:16   #60
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Re: My Quest for Water - Engineering build on a RO system

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Well, I wonder if you may be able to use a brine water system using a double filter system. If your pressure mechanism is cheap enough, perhaps its possible to run a double pump system. Pump through the first RO with a brine water filter, reject 75%, pump into a secondary holding tank, cycle that fluid across the second brine water filter until its salinity reaches a rejection rate, then dump, refill and restart he process. Could be accomplished with a single pump and a couple solenoid valves with a single filter.

Does high salt content destroy a brine water filter or just pass through at a rate higher than its rated rejection rate?
Ah.....that's called running RO Membranes in series and has been done for years.

1.6GPM sea water inlet to membrane 1 makes 21GPH of fresh water...
Then the brine reject for membrane 1 goes into Membrane two and you get another 13GPH.
Why not put a 3rd membrane on in series, because it would plug up from high salt content.

You can only remove so much water before the salt content is too high and the best RO Membrane technology plugs up and fails.

This is water making 101 and known and understood well by those in the industry.

There are two ways you can make your better/cheaper water maker.

1. Invent a Hp pump that can generate between 1-3 GPM of flow rate at 800PSI and can withstand long term sea water exposure for less energy than it takes now.

2. Design a new RO Membrane (or similar technology) that does not need 800PSI to have a 99.4% salt rejection.

What you are NOT going to be able to find and do is take off the shelf parts and build a better/cheaper mouse trap/water maker. Sorry...to be the bearer of bad news, but Nos 1 and 2 above are your criteria so have at it! Just remember, millions in R&D money has been spent...more like hundreds of million world wide to solve the clean water issues and yet here we are. The Spectra Clark pump is the most energy efficient in the world while the triplex piston pump is the most commonly used approach in the world, but uses more energy.

"But Rich...but Rich....the guy on the internet is using a Home Depot pressure washer and built one for $19.95, so you are full of ****."

Ya...and how many of them is he building and selling and providing warranty support and customer service support for...bingo. See folks, there is also a difference in what you can build and SELL to customers compared to what you can build for yourself. When you screw yourself, you don't have anyone to get pissed off at and badmouth on the internet chat room. But buy the exact same system you built from someone else and let it fail...and ShaZam...He's an idiot and bozo for selling junk and there will be a thread about how shitty the gear is on every cruisers chat room around and he's out of business. Can I say DIY WaterMakers and their $2500 20GPH water maker? They lasted about a year before systems started failing and now are bankrupt and out of business. I get called from DIY water maker customers monthly looking for help with their rusted pile-o-parts, how much did they save?
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