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Old 08-02-2012, 12:24   #46
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

Jedi Nick,
It's hard to believe someone is so impressed by a refrigerator that they'll pretend to be your friend for it. Maybe you are just a likable guy and people want to hang out?

I invite people over when I like them and enjoy their company. I'm giving them food and beer. It's a gift, there is no expectation for them to reciporicate.

Anyways, I like your honest and open online style of saying exactly what you are thinking and whatever feels good. That seems very Dutch-- that's where you are from, right? So I am curious if this is cultural, if you guys have a different set of manners for friendships, if you have a little more formal idea of keeping score and expectations for reciprocation with gifts or dinner invitations.

I used to live in Denmark and felt their mental model for friendships is a bit different, and the dinner invitations were a bit more formal and more of an event. I feel that by comparison, in America, or at least in California (we have a big enough GDP to have our own culture, right?), having a friend over for dinner is much more casual and there are lower expectations.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:29   #47
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

I disagree with you Jedi, it is certainly possibly to live without refrigeration in the Tropics, we have done it for a number of years.

We cruised the San Blas islands for over 4 months without resorting to purchasing any provisions save the occasional fish or mango from a canoe!

It takes a degree of attention to the produce on board and an understanding of how to cook varied and interesting meals with a limited pantry, but it is certainly possible.

Canning your own produce eliminates the need to rely on over preserved commercial offerings. Canned butter, in small quantities is handy. We use dried milk powder, only making up sufficient for our immediate needs.

Potatoes,onions,squash,garlic,ginger all keep for months. It's vital to inspect them regularly and we store fresh items in the dark.

Fresh lemons and limes wrapped individually in aluminium foil lasted three months.I canned citrus fruits,figs,berries etc.

So maybe you don't want to live that way,fair enough. However it IS perfectly possible to cruise in the Tropics,without a fridge and still enjoying a varied and interesting diet.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:46   #48
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

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Originally Posted by FrankZ View Post
Rice is the number one thing that makes people sick from leftover Chinese take out. It is the perfect breeding ground when not stored properly. Moist, self sealing (can make the anaerobic environment) and if stored out of the fridge will sit in the danger zone.

People have do things with food storage because they did them in the old days that way (my grandmother did it) and don't get sick. It is dodging bullets. The botulism toxin is one of the most (if not the most) toxic thing on the planet. You can't smell it, you can't taste it, and it is a horrible way to die.

Is your pressure cooker also a canner? Not all are capable.

Chinese take out rice, i can easily see how that can occur especial with any of the special fried rice. I don't think that i would want to store just about any takeaway food from any restaurant/shop knowing many of the practices in restaurants. Like i said (and perhaps i should have been more careful with words) in my situation, where i am in control and then only over night.

The danger zone problems can also exist where people do have refrigeration. How many people regularly check temps, and how many people do not calculate the effect of periods of storage in the danger zone. An example of that would be egg mayonnaise often left out of a fridge.

My understanding is that for each hour foods (unopened) are allowed to go into the zone they have their shelf life shorten by 1 day. In the old days were kids in the UK had to have milk at school and it was stored outside it was often off by break time. May well be why boatman "loves" his milk so much.

Yes i was careful when buying a pressure cooker to ensure that it met my requirement.

None of this changes my other post, as i was saying for ME in that situation on that boat i found that running the refrigeration was a PITA and i found that i did not need it. People are different and circumstances can and do change.

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Old 08-02-2012, 12:52   #49
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

I find this whole conversation very interesting. The PO of my boat circumnavigated, and then when he got back began a refit and bought a lot of stuff that I probably wouldn't have.

One such thing is a teeny tiny isotherm fridge. I think I could live without a fridge, but I woule *like* a freezer to have a steak or whatnot. I also have a medium engel from my previous boat, asn so I'm a little conflicted trying to decide what to do with either or both of these items. The isotherm seems too small to really do anything with except hold a six-pack. And it seems like I could just use ice &/or the larger engel in freeze mode to chill a beer or six.

OTOH, the little isotherm is there, paid for and probably uses less power. so I dunno.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:12   #50
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

Quote:
Originally Posted by msponer View Post
Jedi Nick,
It's hard to believe someone is so impressed by a refrigerator that they'll pretend to be your friend for it. Maybe you are just a likable guy and people want to hang out?

I invite people over when I like them and enjoy their company. I'm giving them food and beer. It's a gift, there is no expectation for them to reciporicate.

Anyways, I like your honest and open online style of saying exactly what you are thinking and whatever feels good. That seems very Dutch-- that's where you are from, right? So I am curious if this is cultural, if you guys have a different set of manners for friendships, if you have a little more formal idea of keeping score and expectations for reciprocation with gifts or dinner invitations.

I used to live in Denmark and felt their mental model for friendships is a bit different, and the dinner invitations were a bit more formal and more of an event. I feel that by comparison, in America, or at least in California (we have a big enough GDP to have our own culture, right?), having a friend over for dinner is much more casual and there are lower expectations.
I am sure the Dutch and Danish are very close if not the same about this. And no, we're not keeping score, I am relating not as much our own experiences as those of the whole community. The stereotype single guy hanging at the bar and eating cans of cold beans never invites people aboard for drinks or dinner. There's enough of them who do not "fish" for invitations so I made that bit too much stereotype may be. And those who do are often more after social contact than a meal. But they do never invite others for a cold can of beans which is all they have. And yes they really exist.. some are even here on CF or so they claim (but I suspect them just talking macho )

I know it's fun to make it seem like I am some kind of scrooge on a big boat with lots of food in freezers and beers in fridges, scaring away those who really need or want it... but please be nice to me because we are in fact the opposite and helped everyone in need that we ever met during our cruising. Think hundreds of boats and local people over the last 9 years, ranging from giving water and food to those who ran out of it while being stuck somewhere, to salvaging boats, direct medical care, transport to hospitals, paying for funerals, fixing boat-problems etc. Of all the cruisers out here in the Caribbean, I can remember may be 2 or 3 that just took care of themselves and left while others that were in trouble could have used their help... and that was in times of panic and life threatening situations. Cruisers are good people and share with each other and the local people they meet.

Coming back to cultural differences... yes, we have been amazed by US cruisers bringing their own beers and/or wine, or not showing up or any of the many other differences. But that was just while we were figuring them out which didn't take that long because we found them to be as simple to read as us Dutchies really. Another observation is that 99.9% of them have a fridge aboard

So in the end, I'll modify my statement a bit: all those who say you don't need a fridge aboard either live in houses with fridges, or on boats with fridges. The very few who actually live on boats without a fridge all want one... except the stereotype singles who eat cold cans of beans

And now I really think I covered it all haha

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:19   #51
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I am sure the Dutch and Danish are very close if not the same about this. And no, we're not keeping score, I am relating not as much our own experiences as those of the whole community. The stereotype single guy hanging at the bar and eating cans of cold beans never invites people aboard for drinks or dinner. There's enough of them who do not "fish" for invitations so I made that bit too much stereotype may be. And those who do are often more after social contact than a meal. But they do never invite others for a cold can of beans which is all they have. And yes they really exist.. some are even here on CF or so they claim (but I suspect them just talking macho )

I know it's fun to make it seem like I am some kind of scrooge on a big boat with lots of food in freezers and beers in fridges, scaring away those who really need or want it... but please be nice to me because we are in fact the opposite and helped everyone in need that we ever met during our cruising. Think hundreds of boats and local people over the last 9 years, ranging from giving water and food to those who ran out of it while being stuck somewhere, to salvaging boats, direct medical care, transport to hospitals, paying for funerals, fixing boat-problems etc. Of all the cruisers out here in the Caribbean, I can remember may be 2 or 3 that just took care of themselves and left while others that were in trouble could have used their help... and that was in times of panic and life threatening situations. Cruisers are good people and share with each other and the local people they meet.

Coming back to cultural differences... yes, we have been amazed by US cruisers bringing their own beers and/or wine, or not showing up or any of the many other differences. But that was just while we were figuring them out which didn't take that long because we found them to be as simple to read as us Dutchies really. Another observation is that 99.9% of them have a fridge aboard

So in the end, I'll modify my statement a bit: all those who say you don't need a fridge aboard either live in houses with fridges, or on boats with fridges. The very few who actually live on boats without a fridge all want one... except the stereotype singles who eat cold cans of beans

And now I really think I covered it all haha

ciao!
Nick.
Im not macho... But im sitting in Holland right now minus 3 degrees, naked in the snow except for a pair of Dubarry boots eating cold baked beans from the tin
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:28   #52
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Ha! I actually bought your SeaGull 2nd hand when I came of that age around '75 and hated every minute I had it

ciao!
Nick.
My first ever outboard was a 2nd hand or was it 3 rd hand British Seagull.

It was buried at Sea the day I decided to purchase a reliable outboard.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:32   #53
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

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Originally Posted by annk View Post
I disagree with you Jedi, it is certainly possibly to live without refrigeration in the Tropics, we have done it for a number of years.

We cruised the San Blas islands for over 4 months without resorting to purchasing any provisions save the occasional fish or mango from a canoe!

It takes a degree of attention to the produce on board and an understanding of how to cook varied and interesting meals with a limited pantry, but it is certainly possible.

Canning your own produce eliminates the need to rely on over preserved commercial offerings. Canned butter, in small quantities is handy. We use dried milk powder, only making up sufficient for our immediate needs.

Potatoes,onions,squash,garlic,ginger all keep for months. It's vital to inspect them regularly and we store fresh items in the dark.

Fresh lemons and limes wrapped individually in aluminium foil lasted three months.I canned citrus fruits,figs,berries etc.

So maybe you don't want to live that way,fair enough. However it IS perfectly possible to cruise in the Tropics,without a fridge and still enjoying a varied and interesting diet.
Well... you got me with your canning canning, smoking, pickling etc. can indeed replace a huge part of what fridges and even freezers can offer. But like you wrote yourself, even then you were happy to buy some food from the locals to get some fresh foods now and then (which I wrote would enable one to be without fridge but at higher cost). Vitamin pills or other supplements can also offer a way out. Yes, I should look into canning...

But you do know of course that what you describe is very different from the boats where cold cans of beans are served. When we sail for the San Blas we have been provisioning for at least a week... lot more work than buying cases of canned beans. I think that the effort that we (and you) put into getting the food we want when we're out there, is part of what others call the PITA of fridges. How many cruisers bake their own bread? not even half...

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:35   #54
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

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Yeah, On a budget or smaller boat, I would think the small engel would be a great compromise to having solar, wind, high amp alternator etc and the related maintenance and expense. Would one solar panel mostly keep up with the engel?
There is the real way you should do the math, but here's my loose numbers:

- between an engel, lights, and some other light load we're using ~100AH
- four trojan t105 batteries providing 450AH
- two 135w panels

Enough for us. When it isn't we motor somewhere and the alternator dumps in some juice. We run the engine every few days anyway so no problems.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:41   #55
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

I can’t control the size of the fish I catch and I’m not dumping 20lb of fish overboard because it will kill me in a day or so when it goes off, so I have a frig and freezer to handle it. I meat I eat is about 99% seafood I catch/trap/collect and need to hold it for days in frig or weeks in freezer, you might live on tinned fish and rice, I like fresh or fresh/frozen fish and salads.
Besides the fish/lobster/conch/oysters/prawns I need to cool a good Chardonnay/pinot gris/other great white wine, to go with it down to 8C and that’s difficult in 18-28C water.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:51   #56
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The special fried rice will probably make you ill... but if you check you'll find what kills you is not the rice if you eat it cold... its the incorrect reheating that creates the toxins... the only pre-cooked rice I'll eat the next day is cold white rice with milk and sugar...
As for living in the Tropics without refrieration...
my family lived in India for 200+ years... get an unglazed earthenware jar and half fill with water and hang your butter etc in there to stay cool.. its called evaporation.. a centuries old trick...
fruit will go off quick if you buy in supermarkets... but then of course you do... white folk get nervous once the ethnic balance starts exceeding 10 to 1...
Keep potatoes in dark places in paper, hang onions in light places, buy your bananas green and other fruit hard in the markets..
Yoghurt homemade fresh.. use it with sugar or in cooking... if you like spicey food like me pickle shrimp (Achar) or meats.. keep for ages but eat in 2-3 days once opened..
Billtong cooks up nicely in a curry after soaking awhile..
Its pretty easy if you are raised that way... but I guess you eat, shop and live how your raised...
Oh.. no scurvy either.. pickled mango and limes keep that at bay... and nuts sultana's etc cover protiens etc...
GeZeus... I really do rough it... gonna have to get a fridge...
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:01   #57
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

Sure one can survive without a fridge and that might be the choice for some and it is possible. Your choice.

However, these days with relatively cheap solar panels (vs 5yrs ago) and cheap efficient 12V danfoss systems why no fridge especially if cruising in the tropics? Seems a good investment return a quick payback.

The percentage of those who choose to cruise the tropics without fridges would be a very low percentage of those who are actually cruising.
Most do not choose to go down that track.
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:05   #58
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Re: Living Without a Fridge

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get an unglazed earthenware jar and half fill with water and hang your butter etc in there to stay cool.. its called evaporation.. a centuries old trick...
Okay, I call. I'm so sure you're bluffing If you have a photo of your jar with butter and water hanging in your boat then I promise to believe anything you write from now on

ciao!
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:07   #59
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Sure one can survive without a fridge and that might be the choice for some and it is possible. Your choice.

However, these days with relatively cheap solar panels (vs 5yrs ago) and cheap efficient 12V danfoss systems why no fridge especially if cruising in the tropics? Seems a good investment return a quick payback.

The percentage of those who choose to cruise the tropics without fridges would be a very low percentage of those who are actually cruising.
Most do not choose to go down that track.
Thank you... civilised reasoned response... pleasant change...
for some its a choice...
Actually reading this has been hilarious...




PS:
  • 2 pounds boneless meat, cubed
  • 1 quart white vinegar
  • 1/2 cup mustard seed
  • 1 tablespoon celery seed
  • 2 tablespoons hot sauce (optional)
  • 1 bay leaf
  • 6 garlic cloves, peeled and cracked
  • 1 tablespoon salt
  • 12 peppercorns, whole
  • Airtight glass container


1Cut cooked meat into 2-inch cubes.
2Combine all ingredients, except the meat, in a saucepan.



3Set heat to high and boil ingredients in saucepan for three minutes.



4Place in an airtight glass container and cool


5Add the meat once the mixture is completely clear. Bubbles may appear. Stir the mixture to remove the bubbles.
Leave for a minimum of three days before using. Use within a year of pickling.
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:15   #60
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Thai pickled meat platter..
But I survive.. just..
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