Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-06-2010, 01:16   #1
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
Dry Ice ?

In these days of power conservation we on board Talisman have elected to go down the route of an "Ice Box" rather than the more traditional route of a fridge.
The plan is to have a "Yeti" 62 Liter Ice Box and to cool it using "Dry Ice".

Dry Ice (CO2) is very cold (-72c) and does not turn into water as it melts.

Dry Ice can be made on board, there are a number of methods but all you do is expel Liquid CO2 through a funnel into a bag. Then compress the resulting flakes into a lump, tie the bag and put it in the ice box.

Over here in the UK CO2 is around £70.00 for 15 Kilos, so around £70.00 a year. The funnel kit is £80.00. This is a more cost effective system than the cost of the fridge and the batteries and the production of power to fill the batteries.

This seems to be a cheap, clean, green means of running a cooler.

Any thoughts, or am I nuts?

Many thanks

Simes
__________________

__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 02:59   #2
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Not a who dunit fan?

The main disadvantage of "dry ice" on a boat may be that the carbon dioxide gas is much heavier than air so that as the solid CO2 sublimates it will displace air (including all oxygen) from the inside of the boat.

CO2 being odourless and colourless it is likely that the it would not be noticed and any crew inside would asphyxiate.

This may puzzle the police for quite a while as the gas would disappear leaving dead crew with no cause of death.
__________________

__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 10:01   #3
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Seems to be 3 categories:
Those who haven't sailed with dry ice and say you're gonna die.
Those that have sailed with dry ice and are still here.
Those that have sailed with dry ice, died and aren't going to tell us about it because they're dead.

Boat I crewed on from Hawaii had ice box with dry ice in it.

I couldn't find a case of someone dieing on a boat due to dry ice in a web search. I did find some near deaths in cars and planes and some regulations for the air industry as to how much ventilation you need.

Has anyone come across a case personally or web search of someone dieing on a boat due to asphixiation from CO2?

Topic has been hashed before here:

Dry Ice in the Ice Box ?

And:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f91/no-refrigeration-your-advice-2829.html


equations for how much dry ice and how much ventilation:

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/m...dia/200619.pdf


Guy got sick with a lot of dry ice in car, not insulated, air set on recycle.

JAMA -- Brief Report: Acute Illness From Dry Ice Exposure During Hurricane Ivan--Alabama, 2004, April 6, 2005, 293 (13): 1585


John
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 10:12   #4
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
I'm one who has used it for a 10 day race with no apparent ill effects. Unless I can blame it for the loss of a few brain cells.............

'Cos what I want to know is how 'green' is the direct production of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as compared with a regular electric compessor powered by wind or solar?

Or am I missing something more?

JOHN

JOHN
__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 10:20   #5
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
So lots of ventilation, Don't use very much, lasts for a few days. Sounds good to me.

It is possible that economically a fridge may be the long term cheaper option but the Yeti is so efficient that we are tempted to try the Dry Ice experiment. If we go the Dry Ice option I will post the results here.

Thanks for the link to the previous thread, for whatever reason I had not found it in my search.

Thanks again, this is the most informative, responsible and polite forum I have ever used.

Simes
__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 11:57   #6
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
As CO2 seems to primarily come from by-products of existing industries that would have just vented it into the air anyway, until those industries become defunct it seems to be very green.

http://www.airproducts.com/nr/rdonly...fetygram18.pdf

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
I'm one who has used it for a 10 day race with no apparent ill effects. Unless I can blame it for the loss of a few brain cells.............

'Cos what I want to know is how 'green' is the direct production of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as compared with a regular electric compessor powered by wind or solar?

Or am I missing something more?

JOHN

JOHN
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 13:35   #7
sitting on the dock of the bay

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,513
Images: 6
Send a message via Yahoo to gonesail
if you could rig an overboard downhill vent from the bottom of the ice box to a thru hull (not underwater) seems you would be fine.
__________________
sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most.
gonesail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2010, 18:53   #8
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,773
Have you ever made your own dry ice? I would want to try that out before committing to using it for refrigeration. I am the master of cool ideas that don't work well in practice.

Does sound like a cool idea, and yes, I have used it aboard and apparently not died.

Chris
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 02:32   #9
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
Not Made it yet

I have done a few searches on t'internet and have also spoken to a High School Science teach' who tells me that it is easy and effective to make at home (as it were).
Gloves and goggles are absolutely required and I suspect that a heavy apron would also be a good idea.

If we go ahead I will let you know.

It all sounds do-able,

Simes
__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 04:46   #10
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,310
my quick www search says it isn't easy to make at home in enough quantity to make it, how are you planning to do it?
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 06:07   #11
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
Easy?

Hi Don,

I did a big of surfing and came up with this site Ice Machines And Frigimat Junior Dry Ice Machine - Cole-Parmer Catalog
Looks easy and reasonably cheap.

The reason we started looking was just to reduce our 12v consumption. Yeti Coolers recommend Dry Ice as the ideal cooling substance. Can't buy it at sea so how to make it, remembered some from school and went from there.

As for how will I make it?
1, Use the machine to produce Dry Ice "Snow".
2, Put the bag of "Snow" in to a rectangular container.
3, Press down on the bag, compress "Snow" into Rectangle of "Ice".

Remove bag from container, remove "Ice" from bag, place "Ice" in clean plastic bag and place in Cooler.

There are probably better methods but that does seem like a start.

Simes
__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 07:41   #12
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
You're buying a 15 kilo tank, that's 33 lbs of CO2. Answers at Cole Parmer indicate you make 1 lb of dry ice for 3-5 lbs of CO2. At best that's 10 lbs of dry ice from your tank. From the other thread folks are putting 10 to 50 lbs in their ice boxes. Their consumption rate ranges from 1.5 to 10 lbs per day. Choosing 2 lbs per day gives you 5 days of cold from your tank total.

Feel free to check my math since I screwed up my dimensional analysis in the last dry ice thread.

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simes View Post
Hi Don,

I did a big of surfing and came up with this site Ice Machines And Frigimat Junior Dry Ice Machine - Cole-Parmer Catalog
Looks easy and reasonably cheap.

The reason we started looking was just to reduce our 12v consumption. Yeti Coolers recommend Dry Ice as the ideal cooling substance. Can't buy it at sea so how to make it, remembered some from school and went from there.

As for how will I make it?
1, Use the machine to produce Dry Ice "Snow".
2, Put the bag of "Snow" in to a rectangular container.
3, Press down on the bag, compress "Snow" into Rectangle of "Ice".

Remove bag from container, remove "Ice" from bag, place "Ice" in clean plastic bag and place in Cooler.

There are probably better methods but that does seem like a start.

Simes
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 07:53   #13
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
Nothing wrong with your math

Our cooler is only 60 litres and very well insulated, info from Yeti and our own observations / experiments suggest that 1.5 Lbs of Dry Ice in an already cooled box will run 5 to 8 days.

We currently us a 1.5 Litre "Ice" pack and that lasts for 4 days. 2 X Ice packs will last 10 days, if the cooler is already cool.

Our target is not to be at freezer temp, just to be at 0 to +5 degrees C.
That means lots of small amounts of ice (easier to control temp) on a regular basis rather than one big lump every now and again.

I have to say that whilst I really like the idea of Dry Ice I think that keeping the cylinder onboard and purchasing the cylinders and exchanging them in different countries / cultures is going to be hard work.

So we may just have to dump the whole idea. I guess that Isotherm will make another sale?

Simes
__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 17:56   #14
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,033
Simes-
"it is easy and effective to make at home " Yes, but let's not neglect the laws of thermodynamics and all that nice stuff, shall we?
You're dealing with a perpetual motion machine here. No matter what you make, you're still only "transforming" and in order to get BTUs out of the icebox, you've got to invest energy into whatever is cooling it. I suspect that either you will need a source of BTUs aboard the boat to make the dry ice, or you'll need an incredibly bulky and expensive CO2 source.
Things that are easy at home, often rely on things that ARE easy at home. like plugging in a mains power cord, sadly absent on most small craft.<G>
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 04:09   #15
Registered User
 
Simes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: River Medina, Cowes Isle of Wight, UK
Boat: Gaff Schooner 45' - Talisman of Fambridge
Posts: 142
Images: 1
Dear Hellosailor,

I could care less about any "Laws of Thermodynamics" don't know what they are nor how to implement them.
Yes this process is "transforming" from one source to another, this is what any fridge does.
The source for CO2 is a bottle or cylinder, the suggestions are that you could produce "Dry Ice" at a ratio of 3:2 Litres of Liquid CO2 to Kilos of "Dry Ice". Even a large portable cylinder is only 1.4m by 0.4m and should produce around 20Kg of "Dry Ice".
The cooler we plan to use is a Yeti Cooler 80 Quart. 0.5 Kg should last around 10 days (may be more in winter less in summer.
We should use a couple of cylinders a year.
Cylinder costs £80.00 so £160.00 per year max.
I agree that things are easier at home, fortunately our home is also our or boat.

Have fun,

Simes
__________________

__________________
Simes
Talisman of Fambridge
Simes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.