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Old 14-07-2014, 09:56   #136
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

So there all the Baja Ha-ha-ers were all 160 boats full of them anchored in Turtle Bay on the Baja Pacific Coast. They had just completed their first 3-day leg from San Diego to Mexico...paradise at last. In addition to partying on the beach, getting fuel, they all had trash to get rid of, which wasn't a problem because the water taxis along with village kids on kayaks would take your trash away for you for a $1 a bag. What a great deal for the Costco Jumbo Large bags of newbie cruiser trash.

Or is it? Where does that trash go? Well for most cruisers that never venture too far inland from the manicured gringo marina complex they think the it's sorted to remove the recyclables and then gets properly disposed of in a clay lined landfill with vacuum systems to collect the methane gas and liquid barrier and collection systems to keep the liquid concentrate from flowing out of the landfill into the water supply. Reality can't be further from the truth. Most of the trash gets piled along the roads outside of town, if lucky someone will throw a match on it. On the outskirts of every town in Mexico we have visited there is a never ending smoldering trash heap where the locals dispose of their trash. If it's not burned along with side of the road, then it blows through the desert until it finds a cactus to stick to or some water to wash it away out to sea.

The Blue Recycling bins at the Marinas in the mid Sea of Cortez are there to make the gringo cruisers feel good and as PR. I've seen where they dump and burn the normal trash along with the recyclable trash cans in a pit and keep it burning with any combustible liquid they can find. The holier than thou "I'm clean and green" mental game that some on this thread are playing is coming out of ignorance of reality and more importantly as Mark suggested perspective.

The ignorance and perspective stems from the fact that because the US East Coast and Great Lakes has adequate waste collection and disposal it is wrongly assumed the rest of the world works that way. Because communities in NY, Boston, and other popular cruiser herd paths along the East coast opt to spend their collective tax dollars on waste collection and disposal kids and families are starving and dying from lack of food and medicine in many of the cruising "paradise" locations around the world and frankly, those people don't give a rats ass that it bothers American/Canadian sensibilities, they are just trying to stay alive!

Now calm down, I didn’t say that is justification for throwing your trash off the stern while at anchor…sheesh. But it’s also a realization of reality while cruising “paradise”. So do you make yourself feel good by paying that $1/bag and then wash your hands and conscience about what then happens to the trash? Or do you face the reality of where you are and take more proactive measures to dispose of your trash in a way that will do the LEAST harm. Not “No Harm” because there is NO SUCH THING…but what will do the LEAST HARM to the environment? Breaking bottles at sea, filling and sinking cans, tearing up paper/cardboard waste and disposing at sea…these CAN be the “least Harm” ways to responsibly dispose of trash when the option is for it to be dumped on the outskirts of town and blown around until it gets burned.

The perspective talked about by Mark is being situationally aware of where you are and what’s going on around you and then using your brain to make the best decision given the circumstances. Or your other option, is to go from gilded gringo marina to gringo marina, sort and dump your trash in the right colored bin and turn you back to the reality of what happens when you walk away, while keep your smug-arrogant-holier-than-thou-mindset ignorantly intact.
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Old 14-07-2014, 11:02   #137
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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Banana peels? Seriously? Next you guys are gonna start saying I need to bag my farts.
If you don't bag your farts you could blow up when you light the stove! I always bag and have lived long as a result. I'll take another bowl of that black bean chili please!
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Old 14-07-2014, 13:50   #138
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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Now calm down, I didn’t say that is justification for throwing your trash off the stern while at anchor…sheesh. But it’s also a realization of reality while cruising “paradise”. So do you make yourself feel good by paying that $1/bag and then wash your hands and conscience about what then happens to the trash? Or do you face the reality of where you are and take more proactive measures to dispose of your trash in a way that will do the LEAST harm. Not “No Harm” because there is NO SUCH THING…but what will do the LEAST HARM to the environment? Breaking bottles at sea, filling and sinking cans, tearing up paper/cardboard waste and disposing at sea…these CAN be the “least Harm” ways to responsibly dispose of trash when the option is for it to be dumped on the outskirts of town and blown around until it gets burned.
Well said.

And to the OP(s) who said, if anybody did say it or was that just somebody paraphrasing, that they are green because they live on a sailing boat - think again! Unless it is wood and iron the actual construction is probably not as green as your house on land. It's probably built of plastic, it probably has plastic sails, it probably burns diesel very inefficiently (because of they way its used to just transport you and your partner and your dog). You may have solar panels that are so inefficient that most of them create a bigger carbon footprint in their construction than they ever repay to the planet. etc. etc.

Me I have solar panels, and burn diesel, don't have a plastic boat, I don't bag farts, and I throw trash overboard.

I am just careful about where and what I throw, I try to learn what is good an what is not, and most importantly, what is achievable and best practice based on current knowledge.

Back in the day when the Pardy's were sinking their plastic inside bottle, it was also acceptable practice to use lead fishing weights, and coil your mono-filament fishing line and cut it up so that it couldn't snare birds, before you chucked it. People were also advised to cut up the plastic bands off their six-packs so that the wouldn't snare animals, before you chucked it.

Since then we have learnt that the animals who got snared in fishing line and six pack bands were just the tip of the iceberg and that the stuff goes on harming for many generations and that we should never chuck it (provisos as above - we are better off not buying it because we do have to chuck it eventually).

So bottom line is we can only do our best - but we are all obliged to learn and have no right to rubbish the greenies, or brownies or the pro-nuclear lobby, they all have their good points.
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Old 14-07-2014, 17:00   #139
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

If your going to 'bag your farts', is there a way of holding them in a pressurised tank and then using the product to cook with or run engine, heating etc.
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Old 14-07-2014, 19:27   #140
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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Errr...no.
Errr... yes!

So now they mix them with Bleach before being sent to "private companies" for disposal instead of dumping them directly into the ocean like they did for something like 80 years. Where do you think they end up? I'm sure they have prepared a special containment facility for all those left over chemicals that have been treated with an untested process, maybe one that isn't anywhere the ocean or a watershed and will never leak. Maybe they will contain them like they did with Fukushima radiation.

The point is.. instead of picking on the big guys in a fight they cannot possibly win, there is a lost conspiracy of teenage and college age kids (and adults that behave like college age kids) to go after the little guys... mostly because they know deep inside they can't really solve the big problems without just a little bit more weed.

The only reason we have recycling now, or any other kind of eco-sensitive law for that matter, is that some rich guy on the hill figured out how to make money finding investors for speculative waste disposal methodologies, and hey, if they can make some money at it why not.
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Old 14-07-2014, 20:37   #141
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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Errr... yes!

So now they mix them with Bleach before being sent to "private companies" for disposal instead of dumping them directly into the ocean like they did for something like 80 years. Where do you think they end up? I'm sure they have prepared a special containment facility for all those left over chemicals that have been treated with an untested process, maybe one that isn't anywhere the ocean or a watershed and will never leak. Maybe they will contain them like they did with Fukushima radiation.
Well, since you are so knowledgeable about chemical weapon disposal, perhaps you can cite a few references so that we can also become well informed.

As I recall, there was (is?) a very elaborate installation on Johnston island that destroyed nerve gas munitions. I don't believe that they "mixed them with bleach" and dumped them into the sea. If I am wrong, please correct me, with citations.

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Old 15-07-2014, 04:41   #142
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

what the heck does chemical weapons have to do with the thread??????????????
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Old 15-07-2014, 04:45   #143
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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what the heck does chemical weapons have to do with the thread??????????????
'farts' and the pissing overboard does to the environment...

Oh, and world peace!
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Old 15-07-2014, 06:54   #144
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

If you visit the Bahamas (or probably many other remote islands) you will find an incredible amount of trash washed up on every bit of untended East facing shore, much of it from boats and ships. Plastic containers and sheets may be the worst, but consider that even lines and fishing nets are now made from materials like nylon and polypropylene. You will find every kind of trash know to man kind!! Also, it is a common misunderstanding that aluminum beer/soda cans will quickly "dissolve". This is totally incorrect - they actually take many years to corrode in seawater. Lastly, those damned single use water bottles - they are destroying landfills and the oceans. In my opinion, only digestible organic matter should be discharged at sea in limited quantities, and preferably after digestion and maceration!! Anybody dumping at sea without any consideration of the environmental impact is totally inconsiderate of other members of the human race!!
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Old 15-07-2014, 07:05   #145
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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If you visit the Bahamas (or probably many other remote islands) you will find an incredible amount of trash washed up on every bit of untended East facing shore, much of it from boats and ships.
Yes, but not in the manner you think. It is difficult to believe that boats and ships are dumping hundreds of thousands of shoes overboard, for example - which are about the most common item on the beaches. Same with the occurrence several years ago of rubber dildos covering the windward shores. We have come across whole island chains where the windward beaches were filled with plastic army men.

These must be coming from lost shipping containers and have nothing to do with cruising boats dumping stuff overboard.

I am always surprised that most don't make this connection. We run into many cruisers who are always getting together in groups and complaining about how the "locals" are polluting the beaches - while failing to notice that there aren't any "locals" for many miles, along with the incongruity of associating thousands of dildos, army men and high heeled shoes with the "locals".

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Old 15-07-2014, 09:58   #146
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

I agree that there are container ship losses that show up, though I have yet to experience either the detritus from one or, worse, a full floating container below the surface!! However, my experience is that the trash I have witnessed is typical of boaters, though much may not have originated from boats. It is usually mismatched individual shoes or the remnants of shoes, and masses of miscellaneous crap, not bulk big lot shipments!! As previous, there is no reason to discard solid waste or beverage containers. It is easy usually to crush and store till ashore. I do not think "locals" do the polluting. If they did the trash would be on both East and West facing shores, whereas it is concentrated substantially on the ocean side.
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Old 15-07-2014, 10:13   #147
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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Well, since you are so knowledgeable about chemical weapon disposal, perhaps you can cite a few references so that we can also become well informed.

As I recall, there was (is?) a very elaborate installation on Johnston island that destroyed nerve gas munitions. I don't believe that they "mixed them with bleach" and dumped them into the sea. If I am wrong, please correct me, with citations.

Jim
I don't know exactly how it was done but the chemical weapons recently removed from Syria were treated aboard a ship and disposed of at sea. One report I read was they they were diluted with sea water and dispersed but I'm neither a chemist or knowledgeable about chemical weapons.
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Old 15-07-2014, 10:17   #148
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

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However, my experience is that the trash I have witnessed is typical of boaters, though much may not have originated from boats. It is usually mismatched individual shoes or the remnants of shoes, and masses of miscellaneous crap, not bulk big lot shipments!!
How do you make this distinction? Do you think boaters are throwing away that many shoes of such wide variety? And that many plastic children's toys? And that much plastic lawn furniture? Most of the stuff I see on windward shores doesn't have much boat-related functionality at all. And in many of the places where this type of trash is found, there are very few boaters in those areas - certainly not enough to be responsible for all of that trash. Even if you counted the cruisers over a decade, assumed they all had young children, assumed they all threw all of their plastic stuff overboard, and assume none of the trash degraded.

No - all that plastic on windward shores of islands is not coming from cruising boats. I'm not saying it all comes from container ships. I also suspect there is a lot of first-world garbage-barge dumping and cruise ship dumping - illegal or not.

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Old 15-07-2014, 10:18   #149
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Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-prepa...mical-weapons/

Using bleach. Then get shipped where?

The point I was making is don't pick on cruisers, who actually do care about the environment, and focus on the big picture. I don't and won't throw plastic overboard.


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Old 15-07-2014, 10:19   #150
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Re: Do You Dump Your Trash Over Board?

"I don't know exactly how it was done but the chemical weapons recently removed from Syria were treated aboard a ship and"

So, don't assume anything about what was actually dumped at sea. Depending on what the weapons were, they could very well have been neutralized into other compounds that are in fact normal metabolic byproducts.
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