Best second language

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

BASIC is so prosaic, now FORTRAN on punchcards, that was something

And next you're going to tell us the punch card machine was steam powered.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Polux

.
Since Spanish and Portuguese are close languages and generally Portuguese understand Spanish and vice versa, learning one of the two Iberia languages will mean to be understood by 650 millions, but I will agree that it all depends on the regions one wants to sail.

Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..

I am far from fluent in Spanish but can more or less carry on a conversation. Even so, I can barely understand a word of Portuguese. I can read it a very slightly but spoken, no way. Of course that was in Brasil where, contrary to what they say there, they speak Brazilian and not really Portuguese. I once had a business meeting with a Brazilian guy who spoke no English and not quite as much Spanish as my limited vocabulary. Since that was all we had in common we conducted the discussions in Spanish and both stumbled along.

Spanish from different countries? You bet it's different. Between Mexico, Central and South America and Cuba I must know 5-6 different words for bananas and a few more for plantains.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I am far from fluent in Spanish but can more or less carry on a conversation. Even so, I can barely understand a word of Portuguese. I can read it a very slightly but spoken, no way. Of course that was in Brasil where, contrary to what they say there, they speak Brazilian and not really Portuguese. I once had a business meeting with a Brazilian guy who spoke no English and not quite as much Spanish as my limited vocabulary. Since that was all we had in common we conducted the discussions in Spanish and both stumbled along.

Spanish from different countries? You bet it's different. Between Mexico, Central and South America and Cuba I must know 5-6 different words for bananas and a few more for plantains.

What annoys me is how rude many people are.. I would never dream of saying.. " Your English is crap.. maybe we should speak Portuguese.." yet they have no problem insulting my Portuguese.. but no problem.. I just carry on in Portuguese.. screw them..
So much for 'Its polite to address people in their own language'..

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What annoys me is how rude many people are.. I would never dream of saying.. " Your English is crap.. maybe we should speak Portuguese.." yet they have no problem insulting my Portuguese.. but no problem.. I just carry on in Portuguese.. screw them..
So much for 'Its polite to address people in their own language'..

Just explain that you learned to speak Portuguese correctly, like they do in Rio and Sao Paulo. That will get them really cranked up.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..

You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Polux

You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.

I believe Franco tried purging Galego completely but they went underground with it.. a bit like the Welsh language which has surged forward in a big way over the last 30yrs.. even in the South.
As for S America.. unfortunately when I try to speak Spanish these days Portuguese comes out.. one I learnt in the 90's in a relatively understandable way.. however 8years in Portugal have moved the Spanish folder to the bottom so need time to adjust.. in Panama however I managed okay with Panamanians and Columbians who 'Got' what I was saying.. generally..

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I'm from New York originally. Many of my friends have suggested I learn English as a second language! :bi ggrin:

Good idea. But make sure you learn it from a Scouser or a Geordie.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Newbie. My first language was BASIC on punch cards.

Mine was Fortan IV - also on punch cards.

(Before BASIC had spread much beyond Dartmouth.)

[omc]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Olivier,

Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience on the trawler forum. Try not to take it as prejudice or dislike for the French by Americans in general as I see similar rudeness on other forums between US citizens. I think in some degree it is a symptom of the anonymity of the internet that sometimes brings out the worst in some people.

If it helps to compensate for the bad manners elsewhere I am happy to say that my several trips to France, mostly on business with a little pleasure in between, have been universally pleasant and the people all friendly, gracious and helpful. With one, very minor exception, from Marseilles to Calais the people I met went out of their way to be helpful and speak the best English they could manage to this uneducated American.

I cannot wait to go back and spend a bit more time now that I'm retiring and can do so. Also hope to learn a least enough French to carry on a simple conversation.

Thank you very much for your warm words and support. I have sent PM.

[omc]

Originally Posted by Polux

You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.

My wife is French catalan, she speaks fuently castillan, catalan and some Portuguese too (and French as well of course). She said your analysis was interesting, very good and strong.

[snort]

People often underestimate how difficult it is to learn another language and how long it takes to become truly conversant. That said, it's a worthwhile endeavour that everyone should try.
I agree with the courses mentioned: Destinos, French In Action, Michel Thomas, and Pimsleur are all good.
I'll just mention another useful resource: Anki
Just google it, download and start studying the "flashcards". There are some that have audio files that are useful for pronunciation help.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

...

Regarding western languages English is the most spoken language with 508 million speakers (1st and 2nd languages) but the Spanish (Castillian) is growing faster with 417 millions already. The third one is Russian with 277 millions (1st and 2th) and then Portuguese with 191 millions (1st and 2th) also growing fast.


Since Spanish and Portuguese are close languages and generally Portuguese understand Spanish and vice versa, learning one of the two Iberia languages will mean to be understood by 650 millions, but I will agree that it all depends on the regions one wants to sail.

Surprised to see Portuguese ranked that high, I guess the large population of Brazil puts it there?

Its a beautiful language...esp when spoken by a beautiful Brazilian woman.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Isn't English the most popular second language? That's been my impression in visiting 20-something countries.

It is. Especially in the UK and the US.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by zeehag

hay that noo yoahrk thing is real.many west coasters are unable to understand anyone with anything other than kahhlifornia non accent.
ny-ers also have speed talking on their side.......

Being from the south, but having traveled all over the USA working (including NY), I often find myself in the position of translating between dialects. My wife is from "kahhlifornia" so when around southern friends I often have to translate for her. I joke that I speak 3 languages: English, Spanish, and "Bubba".

Central American Spanish has even more variation in dialects than American English, not so much in the accent, as in the USA, but significant variations in vocabulary. For example, in Guatemala and Panama they use totally different vocabulary for common tools & hardware store items.