Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-04-2016, 12:45   #46
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Best second language

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
BASIC is so prosaic, now FORTRAN on punchcards, that was something
And next you're going to tell us the punch card machine was steam powered.
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 13:08   #47
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
.
Since Spanish and Portuguese are close languages and generally Portuguese understand Spanish and vice versa, learning one of the two Iberia languages will mean to be understood by 650 millions, but I will agree that it all depends on the regions one wants to sail.
Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 13:26   #48
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..
I am far from fluent in Spanish but can more or less carry on a conversation. Even so, I can barely understand a word of Portuguese. I can read it a very slightly but spoken, no way. Of course that was in Brasil where, contrary to what they say there, they speak Brazilian and not really Portuguese. I once had a business meeting with a Brazilian guy who spoke no English and not quite as much Spanish as my limited vocabulary. Since that was all we had in common we conducted the discussions in Spanish and both stumbled along.

Spanish from different countries? You bet it's different. Between Mexico, Central and South America and Cuba I must know 5-6 different words for bananas and a few more for plantains.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 13:40   #49
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I am far from fluent in Spanish but can more or less carry on a conversation. Even so, I can barely understand a word of Portuguese. I can read it a very slightly but spoken, no way. Of course that was in Brasil where, contrary to what they say there, they speak Brazilian and not really Portuguese. I once had a business meeting with a Brazilian guy who spoke no English and not quite as much Spanish as my limited vocabulary. Since that was all we had in common we conducted the discussions in Spanish and both stumbled along.

Spanish from different countries? You bet it's different. Between Mexico, Central and South America and Cuba I must know 5-6 different words for bananas and a few more for plantains.
What annoys me is how rude many people are.. I would never dream of saying.. " Your English is crap.. maybe we should speak Portuguese.." yet they have no problem insulting my Portuguese.. but no problem.. I just carry on in Portuguese.. screw them..
So much for 'Its polite to address people in their own language'..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 13:44   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
What annoys me is how rude many people are.. I would never dream of saying.. " Your English is crap.. maybe we should speak Portuguese.." yet they have no problem insulting my Portuguese.. but no problem.. I just carry on in Portuguese.. screw them..
So much for 'Its polite to address people in their own language'..
Just explain that you learned to speak Portuguese correctly, like they do in Rio and Sao Paulo. That will get them really cranked up.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 13:45   #51
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Personally I've found the Spanish similar to the French... they hate other languages.. hell I phoned a boatyard in El Rompido just 16 miles from the Portuguese border and he responded with 'I don't speak Portuguese' then he slammed down the phone.
North Spain where they speak Galego is different.. my Spanguese works well
During my time in Spain it was amusing.. in Andalusia I spoke one way.. then in the Balearics it was 'No No.. you say it this way' then Barcelona it was..'No No..' back in Andalusia if I used my corrections it was 'No No..'
As for S American Spanish.. knew an Argentinian German who did off the record charters with a Spanish course... trouble was he had the same problem..
You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 14:00   #52
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,203
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.
I believe Franco tried purging Galego completely but they went underground with it.. a bit like the Welsh language which has surged forward in a big way over the last 30yrs.. even in the South.
As for S America.. unfortunately when I try to speak Spanish these days Portuguese comes out.. one I learnt in the 90's in a relatively understandable way.. however 8years in Portugal have moved the Spanish folder to the bottom so need time to adjust.. in Panama however I managed okay with Panamanians and Columbians who 'Got' what I was saying.. generally..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 17:14   #53
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,712
Re: Best second language

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I'm from New York originally. Many of my friends have suggested I learn English as a second language! :bi ggrin:
Good idea. But make sure you learn it from a Scouser or a Geordie.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 17:21   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,712
Re: Best second language

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Newbie. My first language was BASIC on punch cards.

Mine was Fortan IV - also on punch cards.

(Before BASIC had spread much beyond Dartmouth.)
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 17:28   #55
omc
Senior Cruiser
 
omc's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Antibes. France
Boat: Grand Banks 42' Motor Yacht
Posts: 107
Images: 3
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Hi Olivier,

Sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience on the trawler forum. Try not to take it as prejudice or dislike for the French by Americans in general as I see similar rudeness on other forums between US citizens. I think in some degree it is a symptom of the anonymity of the internet that sometimes brings out the worst in some people.

If it helps to compensate for the bad manners elsewhere I am happy to say that my several trips to France, mostly on business with a little pleasure in between, have been universally pleasant and the people all friendly, gracious and helpful. With one, very minor exception, from Marseilles to Calais the people I met went out of their way to be helpful and speak the best English they could manage to this uneducated American.

I cannot wait to go back and spend a bit more time now that I'm retiring and can do so. Also hope to learn a least enough French to carry on a simple conversation.
Thank you very much for your warm words and support. I have sent PM.
__________________
Olivier
omc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 17:34   #56
omc
Senior Cruiser
 
omc's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Antibes. France
Boat: Grand Banks 42' Motor Yacht
Posts: 107
Images: 3
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You get that wrong, I mean the bold part, Castillian, that is what is called popularly Spanish is much closer to the Portuguese in what regards vocabulary and gramar but the accent is very different (I read fluently all main Iberia languages, except Basque).

What is a mixture of French with Castillian is the Catalan, with an accent very similar to the Portuguese but more far away in what regards vocabulary. It is funny because the words that are similar to Portuguese have exactly the same accent to the point when a Catalan says to me "Bom dia" I will not know if he is a Catalan or a Portuguese.

Catalan is very similar to the old Langue d'Oc that was spoken for centuries on the South of France.

Regarding the Portuguese and the Galician it is practically the same language, called Galaico/Português. Galicians had tried to enter the community of countries that speak Portuguese as a permanent member and were forbidden by Madrid.

The biggest problem are the different accents and in what regards that the difficulty in understanding different accents is not the same for all. Just try to ask to any Portuguese if he has difficulty in understanding Spanish and you will see that everybody will say that it is easy.

Try that with Spanish and you will see that it will depend with the Spanish region. On Andalucia an Castilla they will have problems, no problems on Cataluna or on most parts of North of Spain.

That does not happen only with Spanish, ask to a Portuguese if he has trouble understanding a Brazilian and he would think you are joking but Brazilians have a lot of trouble to understand a Portuguese and that has nothing with the orthography or the language but with the accent.

South American Spanish speakers have less trouble to understand Portuguese than Castillians or Andaluces and if the Portuguese is spoken with Brazilian accent, even less trouble.

Brazilians and South American native speakers have no trouble understanding themselves and as if someone is learning Portuguese or Spanish in America will certainly will be learning it with a South American accent what I said is valid, regarding mutual understanding, except if someone is sailing on the coasts of Andalucia.
My wife is French catalan, she speaks fuently castillan, catalan and some Portuguese too (and French as well of course). She said your analysis was interesting, very good and strong.
__________________
Olivier
omc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2016, 17:58   #57
Registered User
 
snort's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Trunk (boot) of my car
Boat: Tinker Traveller...a dozen feet of bluewater awesomeness!
Posts: 1,033
Re: Best second language

People often underestimate how difficult it is to learn another language and how long it takes to become truly conversant. That said, it's a worthwhile endeavour that everyone should try.
I agree with the courses mentioned: Destinos, French In Action, Michel Thomas, and Pimsleur are all good.
I'll just mention another useful resource: Anki
Just google it, download and start studying the "flashcards". There are some that have audio files that are useful for pronunciation help.
__________________
snort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2016, 05:23   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,936
Re: Generalizations are dangerous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
...

Regarding western languages English is the most spoken language with 508 million speakers (1st and 2nd languages) but the Spanish (Castillian) is growing faster with 417 millions already. The third one is Russian with 277 millions (1st and 2th) and then Portuguese with 191 millions (1st and 2th) also growing fast.


Since Spanish and Portuguese are close languages and generally Portuguese understand Spanish and vice versa, learning one of the two Iberia languages will mean to be understood by 650 millions, but I will agree that it all depends on the regions one wants to sail.
Surprised to see Portuguese ranked that high, I guess the large population of Brazil puts it there?

Its a beautiful language...esp when spoken by a beautiful Brazilian woman.
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2016, 05:31   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Best second language

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Isn't English the most popular second language? That's been my impression in visiting 20-something countries.

It is. Especially in the UK and the US.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2016, 05:44   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,936
Re: Best second language

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
hay that noo yoahrk thing is real.many west coasters are unable to understand anyone with anything other than kahhlifornia non accent.
ny-ers also have speed talking on their side.......
Being from the south, but having traveled all over the USA working (including NY), I often find myself in the position of translating between dialects. My wife is from "kahhlifornia" so when around southern friends I often have to translate for her. I joke that I speak 3 languages: English, Spanish, and "Bubba".

Central American Spanish has even more variation in dialects than American English, not so much in the accent, as in the USA, but significant variations in vocabulary. For example, in Guatemala and Panama they use totally different vocabulary for common tools & hardware store items.
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What language(s) are the most common? JB_in_Fla General Sailing Forum 23 09-12-2016 19:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.