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Old 10-02-2018, 07:27   #151
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Another thing about these small boats besides the amount of water (and beer) they can carry is that they are REALLY small inside.

Those with an 8' beam like mine and the Vega 27 have less than that inside the cabin and maybe 12' or so of living space

When I do my weekend and vacation cruises, I don't spend a whole lot of time inside. Usually it's just to sleep, change, and be on the computer a bit if I bring my computer. Most everything else I do behind the dodger as far as when relaxing

Part of that could be that this boat is my first that had a cabin. The other 10-12 boats I owned were either small fishing boats with outboards or beachcats for racing

I was thinking of buy a Pearson 10M (33') a while back and it was huge inside the cabin but simply wasn't setup for cruising

For someone used to life ashore to suddenly live in a space smaller than most bathrooms ashore would definitely be an adjustment

On the other hand, after about 5 days or so, I do sleep better aboard my small boat and have some sort of system worked out for a day routine but that routine usually includes leaving the boat on my kayak which is 16'6" long and doing something ashore.

A few weeks simply sailing and living aboard would be quite different......and could get a bit boring unless you have a plan such as learning celestial navigation, reading some good books, ...... or maybe doing some math problems?
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:04   #152
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Originally Posted by OldManMirage View Post
But back to the subject of water. Another one of the reasons I like my CD28 is the 2 built in 30 gallon water tanks. Since its just me that's a good supply. I still plan on a watermaker, and I will choose that over refrigeration even though I'd love to have ice in my drink now and then. You can buy ice. If I can reasonably power both, I may add the refrigeration. I'll see how it goes.
In addition to Boatie, Markj also published his consumption for an Atlantic crossing, Canary Islands to the Caribbean. He used 100 litres, but I can't remember how long it took him, probably 25 days.

The fridge is certainly doable and one of the first things we fitted. Not sure about a freezer for ice though, suspect that requires a lot more insulation and power to run.

Thankfully water isn't a problem I have to worry about. Living on a soggy island on the NW corner of Europe we have lots of high quality drinking water available everywhere for free. the downside is that water has to come from somewhere and today is probably the first day it hasn't rained this year here.

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Old 11-02-2018, 17:32   #153
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Yeah, ice would be nice but as you say not sure how feasible. I plan to re-work the whole galley area next year and put in a gimbaled stove, relocate the sink from under the companionway (where it is really hard to use) and rebuild the ice box into something smaller. Perhaps the smaller size would make ice more possible, with some good insulation. Not the #1 priority but hey, if I can make it happen I'll try !

Definitely hope to visit your side of the pond in my travels. I can trace my ancestry back to a dentist from your neck of the woods !
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Old 11-02-2018, 18:08   #154
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

hey ,
i would like to share my knowledge my english are not good so please bare with me .
I been sailing sailing the last 2 years and living aboard on a beneteuau first 26 build in 1984 .
On living quorters the boat is really spacious and enouph for spare parts and sail food and water for about a month the biggest problem is the absense of shower inside the toiler (you will really appreciate it away from z marina in cold places ) and the low headroom .

My most observations are on sailing , the perfomance of the boat is exceptional i have been to up to 50 knots of wind in the med and the Atlantic and i never feared that the boat will capsize , the things where pretty comfortable for the conditions .(i believe would have been the same **** on a bigger boat ) through i never sailed on a boat over 52 feet. now this is the list with most critical issues:
1)Transorm hanging rudder during storms can be crashed by huge waves and the pressure on the rudder can brake the tiller (happened to me in the atlantic )
2)There is no place for the clothes so everything is wet doesn't matter how much you try
3)your speed 4 to 5 knots average wont allow you to run away from a storm or to sail with it longer distances and this resolve to exceptional slower passages .
4)No space for solar panels but enouph for the basic comfort
5)If the boat take water which it happened to me multiple of times for different reason your time of reaction is a lot smaller. (i do have 3 manual bilge pumps , and one automatic electric )
6)The boat is more sensitive specificly when bigger boats crash on you
7)The boat is easier to get a knock down so always get your life line , once of my crew fell in the water and he was steering! during a storm

Now the benefits :
Easier to find harbours , marinas and bays
Easier and less stresfull to sail
easier to repair and doesnt require special tools or materials
Less expensive sails repairs and rigging
Less expensive boatyard and marina fees
About the expenses :
I changed on the boat Toe rail , life lines , rigging ,1 mainsail , windows , the roller , added solar panels and other extras for better living aboard and with the cost of buying the boat i have spent just 12.000 euros , to do the same cruising on a bigger boat will cost me 50.000 +
About the tranform hanging rudder :
Mine is attached on the transorm and the hull of the boat (the boat is fin keel) it holds pretty well until now and it has 14 mm inox shaft the only issue are the bearings that need to be change every 2000 miles , their low price about 1 or 2 euros each makes them no problem .
ITs verry easy and cheap!! (it cost me about 200 euros ) to build a custom trim tab wind vane if you have this kind of rudder i do regret buying Raymarine EV 100 after testing the windvane .

i think this sums up most of the issues .

My boat has a 8 hp inboard volvo penta , 40 liter diesel tank and i carry about 250 litters of water .

i am currently in Canary islands and i plan to sail to Cape Varde and Guinea Bisau next.

You need to understand that how you prepare the boat and how well you know your boat will have effect on your safety and comfort at sea , before you head out you need to practise and thing all possible senarios , as a new and young sailor (i am 25 years old) i was really lucky and saved by the preperations of the previous owner! he taught me lessons without being there.
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Old 11-02-2018, 21:38   #155
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmakhs View Post
hey ,
i would like to share my knowledge my english are not good so please bare with me .
I been sailing sailing the last 2 years and living aboard on a beneteuau first 26 build in 1984 .
On living quorters the boat is really spacious and enouph for spare parts and sail food and water for about a month the biggest problem is the absense of shower inside the toiler (you will really appreciate it away from z marina in cold places ) and the low headroom .

My most observations are on sailing , the perfomance of the boat is exceptional i have been to up to 50 knots of wind in the med and the Atlantic and i never feared that the boat will capsize , the things where pretty comfortable for the conditions .(i believe would have been the same **** on a bigger boat ) through i never sailed on a boat over 52 feet. now this is the list with most critical issues:
1)Transorm hanging rudder during storms can be crashed by huge waves and the pressure on the rudder can brake the tiller (happened to me in the atlantic )
2)There is no place for the clothes so everything is wet doesn't matter how much you try
3)your speed 4 to 5 knots average wont allow you to run away from a storm or to sail with it longer distances and this resolve to exceptional slower passages .
4)No space for solar panels but enouph for the basic comfort
5)If the boat take water which it happened to me multiple of times for different reason your time of reaction is a lot smaller. (i do have 3 manual bilge pumps , and one automatic electric )
6)The boat is more sensitive specificly when bigger boats crash on you
7)The boat is easier to get a knock down so always get your life line , once of my crew fell in the water and he was steering! during a storm

Now the benefits :
Easier to find harbours , marinas and bays
Easier and less stresfull to sail
easier to repair and doesnt require special tools or materials
Less expensive sails repairs and rigging
Less expensive boatyard and marina fees
About the expenses :
I changed on the boat Toe rail , life lines , rigging ,1 mainsail , windows , the roller , added solar panels and other extras for better living aboard and with the cost of buying the boat i have spent just 12.000 euros , to do the same cruising on a bigger boat will cost me 50.000 +
About the tranform hanging rudder :
Mine is attached on the transorm and the hull of the boat (the boat is fin keel) it holds pretty well until now and it has 14 mm inox shaft the only issue are the bearings that need to be change every 2000 miles , their low price about 1 or 2 euros each makes them no problem .
ITs verry easy and cheap!! (it cost me about 200 euros ) to build a custom trim tab wind vane if you have this kind of rudder i do regret buying Raymarine EV 100 after testing the windvane .

i think this sums up most of the issues .

My boat has a 8 hp inboard volvo penta , 40 liter diesel tank and i carry about 250 litters of water .

i am currently in Canary islands and i plan to sail to Cape Varde and Guinea Bisau next.

You need to understand that how you prepare the boat and how well you know your boat will have effect on your safety and comfort at sea , before you head out you need to practise and thing all possible senarios , as a new and young sailor (i am 25 years old) i was really lucky and saved by the preperations of the previous owner! he taught me lessons without being there.
Thank you for this most excellent write-up. Its very helpful! Cheers
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Old 15-02-2018, 20:59   #156
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Hey, I came across my cruising gear spreadsheet, and thought of this thread. It might help to look at some concrete numbers and their effect on "performance" numbers.

I was playing around with wish lists of cruising gear, and figuring out whether it would fit on my boat. It's also sort of my "shopping list" when trolling craigslist or eBay. With additional work, it will eventually become the ship's manifest. Surely incomplete, but there are some fudge factors in there too, and some things that could be jettisoned without much pain.

As part of the exercise, I didn't restrain myself in any way - I listed every possible thing I thought I might want to put on board, then looked up or guessed how much it weighs. Or just weighed it, if I already had it. And thought about how I'd stow it on my boat. Well, I can't find an easy way to paste a spreadsheet in here, but it's got everything. Scuba compressor, bicycle, kayak, solar panels, all chain rode, etc. etc. I'm sure it's incomplete. Lo and behold, it came out to about 2000 pounds. Isn't there some old rule of thumb about "a ton per person?" Well, most of this stuff is for the boat, so it's the same for one or two persons. More than half of that is simply water, fuel, batteries, and ground tackle.

Then I went to the performance ratio formulas and figured out how much weight it would take to lower my waterline an inch. I figured 700 lbs. This handy on-line calculator and database says 733. Pretty close. Or at least it uses a similar formula. For comparison, an Albin Vega, is 657 lbs. For a Valiant 40, its 1491 lbs.
So fully loaded, that would raise my boat's waterline about 2.7 inches. About half an inch into the boot stripe. Doesn't seem too unreasonable for a big voyage.

But. It's already practically on the boot stripe! That means I've got to account for stuff already on board and systems that I or previous owners added. So I went back to the spreadsheet. And came up with an astounding 1000 lbs of stuff already on board! And brought the running total for cruising load up to 2550 lbs. That would push the waterline down a total of 3.5 inches. Hmm... I suppose it's possible. Starting to reach the limits of my comfort zone though. Plus a previous owner added ballast by filling in the hollow part of the keel, but I have no way of knowing exactly how much.

What about "performance?" Using the calculator linked above, you can start with your boat's factory specs, then edit the load and see what happens to various standard ratios. These things have their well-known limits, but you can at least compare the theoretical effects.

Sail Area to Displacement: Stock 15.7, As is 14.4, Fully Loaded, 13.1. Hmm, that's starting to get down close to the sluggish "motor sailor" range. Run out the bowsprit and get out those big head sails!

Motion Comfort Ratio: Stock 28.09, As is 31.23, Fully Loaded 36.31. That's actually pretty good! Improves stability and reduces rocking and rolling, more like the bigger boats. Theoretically.

Capsize ratio: Stock 1.81, As Is 1.75, Fully Loaded 1.66. Also good. Of course this assumes that the load is secured logically down in the bottom of the hull. Not on the deck! (Calculator doesn't seem to allow for ballast weight?)

Loosely speaking, what I think it's telling me is that my boat would sail pretty well with about a ton of gear and stores, but not very much more than that. But the calculator lets you try the same game with different boats and different amounts of gear.

Of course the proof is to load all that stuff on board and take it out for a couple of weeks. But that's a lot more work than looking up numbers!
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Old 15-02-2018, 22:44   #157
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Originally Posted by toddster8 View Post

Motion Comfort Ratio: Stock 28.09, As is 31.23, Fully Loaded 36.31. That's actually pretty good! Improves stability and reduces rocking and rolling, more like the bigger boats. Theoretically.

Capsize ratio: Stock 1.81, As Is 1.75, Fully Loaded 1.66. Also good. Of course this assumes that the load is secured logically down in the bottom of the hull. Not on the deck! (Calculator doesn't seem to allow for ballast weight?)
Aye, there's the rub. It's: where is the volume to PUT all that weight? Our smaller boats just don't have a lot of volume BELOW the water line where it really must go. It is not a good plan to put any weight that is not absolutely necessary above the water line. In a boat like mine I travel light, in an Albin I'd plan on traveling lighter. On a Santa Cruz 27, I'd pack a thermos and a couple of PB and Js, a change of underwear and a toothbrush with the handle cut off.
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Old 15-02-2018, 22:58   #158
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Yep. Actually, most of the “big” items do fit below the water line. But too many medium-weight items want to go in the ends: The Sailomat, the AmpAir, dinghy outboard, compressor, chain... adds up in a hurry. It’s a conundrum.

One way to make the most of below-water-line stowage is to use integral tanks instead of trying to stick manufactured shapes into the odd spaces down there. There is an example for the Vega on the atom voyages site. I’ve got a bladder tank stuffed under the quarter berth, but it wastes half the available volume.
I wouldn’t dare put fuel in an integral tank. Might be possible to make a cardboard mockup of the space and take it to a local machine shop for fabrication. No way that it would be “coast guard approved” though. And installation would require major surgery.
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Old 15-02-2018, 23:27   #159
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Thanks for the link. This has been my thinking, that the boat is a tad small for 2 people on a Pacific Crossing. Yes it has been done, but when you add everything up your riding high on the water line. And what do you sacrifice for comfort to accommodate for necessity. Sharing a toothbrush?
I saw the ATOM voyage website and saw that he turned a portion of the bilge on a Alberg 30 into a fresh water storage. I have considered this as well.
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Old Yesterday, 22:14   #160
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Why would you worry about being groomed while sailing?

I deal with officials in whatever shorts and flip flops I happen to be wearing

Are you exmilitary and thinking you might get inspected?

I was at an anchorage recently and saw this couple get off their sailboat and into their dinghy. The guy had his shirt tucked in, a belt on, and maybe dock shoes and I was thinking what the hell?


In Singapore, one yachtie needed to apply for visa to visit Bali-Indonesia were told to return by the Indonesian Embassy with skirts or pants that cover her knees.

Guess what she did ? Had to come back the next day as they open for a few hours in the morning only .

In Malaysia, immigration and custom has a dress code for anyone coming to their office. Not sure if they enforced the code.

I alway one set of long pants just for these places.

Eric
@ Ko Lipe
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Old Today, 11:45   #161
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

Water Catchment..
Somewhere i read and saw picture of a dam/diverter type system for water catchment.

It sort of like what the sailboat Atom had to block/divert water from coming into the cockpit. I thought it was the Atom that had that done, but couldnt find exact image that i saw somewhere.

The fill plugs were flush and just opening them up allowed the water from deck to funnel into the tanks.
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Old Today, 12:19   #162
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pirate Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Water Catchment..
Somewhere i read and saw picture of a dam/diverter type system for water catchment.

It sort of like what the sailboat Atom had to block/divert water from coming into the cockpit. I thought it was the Atom that had that done, but couldnt find exact image that i saw somewhere.

The fill plugs were flush and just opening them up allowed the water from deck to funnel into the tanks.
Sounds great but crap in practice.. better to sling a bucket under the gooseneck.
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Old Today, 12:25   #163
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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Sounds great but crap in practice.. better to sling a bucket under the gooseneck.
I saw the images and read his description.
If whatever sailboat i get lends itself to this setup, i will do it.
I think. Really need to find those pictures again and read what he wrote about it.

It has been some years since i saw that.
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Old Today, 12:37   #164
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I saw the images and read his description.
If whatever sailboat i get lends itself to this setup, i will do it.
I think. Really need to find those pictures again and read what he wrote about it.

It has been some years since i saw that.
All you need is one wave to break and run down your side deck and your tank is salted.. hang a bucket of the gooseneck after five minutes of rain to wash the main down.. let out the traveller a bit and raise the boom with the topping lift and clean water will run down the sail and forwards into the bucket.
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Old Today, 15:33   #165
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Re: 27ft cruising reality

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All you need is one wave to break and run down your side deck and your tank is salted.. hang a bucket of the gooseneck after five minutes of rain to wash the main down.. let out the traveller a bit and raise the boom with the topping lift and clean water will run down the sail and forwards into the bucket.
I like it. simple and easy. Every boat should have a couple of good buckets !
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