Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-08-2016, 11:39   #16
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 11,994
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twohapence View Post
Why not use a sheet bend (or double sheet bend)? Quick, easy, and secure. I'm not defending the sheet bend - just curious as to why I might want to learn to tie the zepplin other than as a fun thing to do.
Both the sheet bend and double sheet bend will shake loose frighteningly easily if load is applied and released continually. Unlike the Zeppelin bend, you would never consider towing a boat using either, for example, or say extending a snubber in an emergency.

The Zeppelin bend is ultimately stronger than both as well.

The term "dressing" refers to tightening a knot up by hand before any load is applied. Most knots (even the bowline) will either bind, or worse still slip, unless this is done. It can be slow and difficult to do well when dealing with stiff, old line. The Zeppelin Bend is one of the rare knots that copes with sudden load being applied without careful tightening beforehand. It is a major advantage in an emergency.

The Zeppelin isn't a "fun" bend. It is a superb way of joining two lines, with no drawbacks.

The Alpine Butterfly is the next best thing and belongs to the same "family" of four bends based on intertwined overhands. The only drawback with it is that it does take a bit of time to "dress". Seconds only if the line is soft, but longer with old line. To top it off, there are 6 ways the lines can be arranged when it is fully tightened up. The ability to undo the bend after load is applied will depend on which version is used and possibly the strength of the bend will vary as well. Who needs those added complications with any knot?

SWL
__________________

__________________
Our custom built cutter rigged sloop is for sale:
48' Aluminium Bluewater Cruiser For Sale

"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 11:51   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: West Coast FLA
Boat: 1978 Pearson 424 Ketch
Posts: 443
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

So how does the alpine butterfly knot join two lines of dissimilar sizes? Yah I don't think I'd use the zeppelin bend to make a mid line loop
__________________

__________________
tinkrman69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 12:11   #18
Registered User
 
twohapence's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boat: Sardinia - Me: UK
Boat: Naval Force 3 - Piana 30
Posts: 78
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Unlike the Zeppelin bend, you would never consider towing a boat using either, for example, or say extending a snubber in an emergency.

The Zeppelin isn't a "fun" bend. It is a superb way of joining two lines, with no drawbacks.

SWL
I have three 100 Mtr lengths of rope, 8mm 3 strand polyester line on a reel, along with two braid on braid at 12mm and 16mm. I prefer being able to provide very long lengths when required.

Your points are well made though. I'll have a look at the zepplin and practise tying the knot.

I think I got away without any inneuendo in the post so hopefully have got everyone's mind back on a seaman like approach to the issue in hand.
__________________
“He was going to live forever, or die in the attempt.”
Joseph Heller, Catch-22
twohapence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 14:36   #19
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: mackay, queensland. australia
Boat: e.a jack (builder), g.l watson (designer), 6.2 mtr wll sailboat
Posts: 429
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

sheep shank works ok /or wire to cord make two loops on the ends with granny knots then poke one loop through the other take the bitter end through the loop and pull tight/zeppelin looks interesting / does it need flames to tighten
__________________
knockabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 14:54   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 5,495
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twohapence View Post
Why not use a sheet bend (or double sheet bend)? Quick, easy, andsecure. I'm not defending the sheet bend - just curious as to why I might want to learn to tie the zepplin other than as a fun thing to do.
Quick - not as quick as the Zep.
Easy - not as easy as the Zep.
Secure - NOT! - especially under cyclic loads.

Also:

Non jamming - easier to untie after heavy loads

Self dressing - no need to fuss around making sure that it is neatly and tightly dressed before use. It dresses itself perfectly as soon as you put load on it.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 14:58   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 5,495
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Privleoplag View Post
ABA all the way!

very similar to how I do it.. but I take number one over all 3, and then number 2 over, under and through all.
That's an Alpine Butterfly LOOP, not an Alpine Butterfly BEND.

Entirely different purpose. I'm also of fan of of the AB as a loop (SWL and I differ in opinions on this one).
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 15:16   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 5,495
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twohapence View Post
Not sure what you mean by dress but I find it one of the easiest knots to make.
Dressing = arranging a knot after initial tying to optimise strength and security and to minimize jamming/overturning. Making sure that crossovers etc are in the desired place.

Proper dressing of knots is essential.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 16:45   #23
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Here is one way to make it



BUT there is an easier way to make it VERY quickly with one hand

This video SORT of demonstrates. You DONT need the tape. Simply wrap the ends around the hand

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 16:53   #24
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

So as you can obviously see from the videos, the Alpine Butterfly is VERY easy to learn and there are many ways to make them especially if you are tired and in the dark. There aren't mounds and mounds of lessons to learn and have to pay for like the Zeppelin, and more importantly, you're less likely to injure yourself or those around you, such as small children or cute fuzzy dogs.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 18:04   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
Symphony's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ct
Boat: Tartan 4100
Posts: 376
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

thanks for all this - love learning new bends
__________________
Symphony
Tartan 4100
Symphony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2016, 22:16   #26
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 11,994
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by knockabout View Post
zeppelin looks interesting / does it need flames to tighten
No flames (or blue tape) needed. Just don't mention the war.

SWL
__________________
Our custom built cutter rigged sloop is for sale:
48' Aluminium Bluewater Cruiser For Sale

"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 13:19   #27
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Greece
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,512
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

I'm sure all these knots are fantastic but I'd like to see one demo done with 3/4" dock line that's medium worn and full of salt and the knot tier is hanging two feet over the life lines doing it. None of this seems "real world situation" and for that, I'll stick to the bowline into a bowline every time because I can tie those upside down in near darkness with the standing end being yanked around constantly.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 13:52   #28
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 11,994
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I'm sure all these knots are fantastic but I'd like to see one demo done with 3/4" dock line that's medium worn and full of salt and the knot tier is hanging two feet over the life lines doing it. None of this seems "real world situation" and for that, I'll stick to the bowline into a bowline every time because I can tie those upside down in near darkness with the standing end being yanked around constantly.
How about a demo with a combo of 14 mm medium worn salt encrusted nylon snubber and old double braid tied on a pitching foredeck in the dark?

Snapping shots wasn't practical at the time this was tied, but this is how the Zep bend looked underwater after a night of holding our boat after a night of 25-35 knots:




The wind had risen sharply when we were on a short scope. Rather than hauling up chain to undo the soft shackle on the snubber, it was simpler to attach a bit more line.
This was a classic situation of needing to use the best of the best. Although a head torch helped in this instance, I could have tied this knot in the dark. No need to think of what knot was ideal while a little dopey having been rudely awakened by the rising wind.

Tying two bowlines would have been slow. Dressing them well would have been near impossible in the stiff line. It is likely a bowline would have seized when the snubber was released and a shock load applied (been there, done that ). Not impossible either that a bowline could slip in this situation. Why risk it? Also, it is also a poor choice when cyclical loads are applied underwater.

SWL
__________________
Our custom built cutter rigged sloop is for sale:
48' Aluminium Bluewater Cruiser For Sale

"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 14:24   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Caribbean winters, North Dakota/Minnesota summers
Boat: Leopard 39 Owners Version
Posts: 272
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
That's an Alpine Butterfly LOOP, not an Alpine Butterfly BEND.

Entirely different purpose. I'm also of fan of of the AB as a loop (SWL and I differ in opinions on this one).
Yeah.. I should have said the bend just puts the two ends of the rope as the number 2 (middle) line.. but hope most could have figured that out. Maybe, maybe Knot. (that was a funny).

this is also a great knot to isolate a weak spot in a rope.. just make the weak spot end up in the middle (number 2) when you wrap, and it's isolated.
__________________
Privleoplag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 14:44   #30
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Greece
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,512
Re: Zeppelin bend - dissimilar sized ropes?

SWL,
I just couldn't do it myself and probably won't put that much time into learning the knot in the future. With our boat I haven't in the past had a situation which would lead to needing this knot.

With respect to the bowlines though, I do disagree. I'm pretty fast at tying them, never had one even come close to slipping, always been easy to untie, and if the last 5% of rope strength is lost in the selection of knot, I chose the wrong rope to begin with.

It's crazy how with your zep bend that it doesn't tighten more though. I'd have thought after a night of snubbing that the gaps would have pulled closed.
__________________

__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rope, size

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread Seaworthy Lass Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 223 Yesterday 09:35
Connecting Dissimilar Solar Panels Cruisin Cat Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 3 28-08-2016 10:12
Carriage Bolt sleeve(?) for dissimilar metals(??) Ocean Girl Construction, Maintenance & Refit 21 11-11-2014 18:46
Mast Bend Alan Wheeler Construction, Maintenance & Refit 68 03-04-2006 17:09


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.