Wing and wing

[svHyLyte]

Michael--

Many beginning sailors learn to "head-up" when a yacht begins to heel to reduce the force of the wind--and presumably the heeling moment. On a reach or a run, this doesn't work and--with the addition of centrifical loading in the rig from rounding up, may exacerbate the heel or lead to a broach. The trick is to turn into the roll to get your rig's inertia working for you and then center the helm so the rudder's not killing your speed.

With our old Cal 2-29 it took us 5+ hours to get to the Isthumus from Angles Gate but usually only 2-1/2 to 3 hours to get all the way back to Alamitos Bay "riding the waves" as described (although it could get exciting).

Sail more. You'll do fine. Sailings not particularly difficult once you get a feel for it.

s/v HyLyte

[Jolly Roger]

Ha Ha! Great thread, very illuminating, but you are all barking up the wrong tree! Learn ye not nautical history? Bermudian sails are not built to go downwind. What y’all need are square-sails and yards – as I shall aptly demonstrate, (the moment I can afford to buy my own damn boat that is!). It will be a revelation, and I expect to be inundated with lots of lovely money when I unveil my square sail device, which unfurls a whopping great sheet of canvas, requires no whisker poles, twin forestays, or similar modern contraptions, and is set and reefed from the cockpit without heading into wind and sea—heaven forbid! The boat can be steered by a lunatic, (I know, I’ve done it), 30 degrees either side of the wind, and still be happy as a sand-boy. You will merrily overtake all the wing-on-wing types, who’s eyes and arms are sore tying to steer a 5 degree straight course, and amaze them with one hand on the wheel and one on your gin and tonic.

[Southern Star]

Actually sv HyLyte, unless sailing downwind ( eg. beating, close-reaching or even beam reaching) the force of the wind (the apparent wind) increases as you head up. Having said that, if you head up to the point of luffing you will, of course, depower the sails; and, since most boats have some weather rather than lee helm, the natural tendancy of the boat in these conditions is to head-up with a gust.

Sailing downwind, as you point out, is another matter entirely.

Brad

[svHyLyte]

Jolly Rodger--A roller furling "square sail" is old news. Check out a copy of Denny Moore's self published "Gentlemen Never Sail to Weather". Denny carried a roller furling square sail, and even a Raffee top-sail, on his Concordia Yawl long ago!

[Jolly Roger]

So what, I never said I invented it, I appreciated it first by sailing a brigantine. Most yards are custom made spars, but my concept uses items readily available, which anyone could construct. I was making the point that there are alternative, and better ways to roll downwind than twin headsails.

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

Ha Ha! Great thread, very illuminating, but you are all barking up the wrong tree! Learn ye not nautical history? Bermudian sails are not built to go downwind. What y’all need are square-sails and yards – as I shall aptly demonstrate, (the moment I can afford to buy my own damn boat that is!). It will be a revelation, and I expect to be inundated with lots of lovely money when I unveil my square sail device, which unfurls a whopping great sheet of canvas, requires no whisker poles, twin forestays, or similar modern contraptions, and is set and reefed from the cockpit without heading into wind and sea—heaven forbid! The boat can be steered by a lunatic, (I know, I’ve done it), 30 degrees either side of the wind, and still be happy as a sand-boy. You will merrily overtake all the wing-on-wing types, who’s eyes and arms are sore tying to steer a 5 degree straight course, and amaze them with one hand on the wheel and one on your gin and tonic.

I think Tom Sawyer had that set up as well..

I love the look on a multi mast ..but a single squar sure is ugly..interesting concept though but I bet it wallows something fierce.

[Jolly Roger]

Who said anything about a single sail? Since there is no requirement to go aloft there is no reason why there cannot be a course, a topsail or even a t'gallant, on a mast that will carry it. The boat rolls less than with twin headsails, which unless they are the same size are unbalanced, and the sail(s) can be progressively reefed from the cockpit, which is inherently safer.

[Jim Cate]

Hey, Folks... reality time!
While cruisers often say they never sail to windward, my experience is that all too often I want (or even need) to get somewhere upwind of my current location. Having the ability to sail usefully upwind is still a big must for a cruising boat IMHO. And so, Jolly Roger, all that windage and weight aloft is not gonna do you much good in that case, and you will join the ever growing ranks of folks who are cruising on motor boats with masts... it, that is, the motor feels like running, and has enough grunt to push your multiple yards and furled sails into a stiff breeze, let alone a gale.

And while I'm on my soapbox, we've done tens of thousands of blue water miles wing and wing with prevented main and poled genoa, auto pilot or wind vane steering, and were pretty happy while doing it. What's all the fuss about?

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Gladstone Qld Oz

[skipperaris]

Reading this thread, I feel good once again about my Erato.

Most of my sailing is for the benefit of usually absolute beginners.

Reaching, she steers herself into the wind and I like the delight I see in people's eyes when I peruade them to let go the wheel while they are holding on to it with clenched fingers and they discover that the boat is just steering herself nicely into the wind.

Running (goose winged, I call it) she needs a firm hand and some sensitivity.
What I tell the budding helmsmen is to feel the wind in the small of their back (and keep it there) and watch the sails. If the genoa loses the wind they are supposed to turn towards the main (boom) and vice versa.

Yes we do have the occasional accidental gybe but it is rare and in light winds. If there is anything over force 5 then I use a preventer or roll away the main completely.

With my rig which has an in mast furling main apart from my roller genoa, shortening sail is very easy and there is no need to head into the wind.

[skipperaris]

Do we have any kite surfers here?
My dream is to have a kite for running AND for reaching.
No heel, no broaching.
Just so much money....

Anyone ever experienced this?

[Ex-Calif]

We'll wing on wing on ocassion but it's definitely not the fastest point of sail. Off the wind is better with the genny. We'll pole and prevent if the seas are rolly but usually don't.

Usually we'll wing on wing when we are too lazy to rig the spin. Spin is mucho faster.

[skipperaris]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

We'll wing on wing on ocassion but it's definitely not the fastest point of sail. Off the wind is better with the genny. We'll pole and prevent if the seas are rolly but usually don't.

Usually we'll wing on wing when we are too lazy to rig the spin. Spin is mucho faster.

You are quite right that it is not the fastest point of sailing and of course this makes sense because the apparent wind is least.

May I presume to also suggest you loosen your clew a bit to make your main baggier and perhaps to sheet out your boom as far as it will go? Hope you don't mind me saying so.

Fair winds!

Aris

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by skipperaris

Do we have any kite surfers here?
My dream is to have a kite for running AND for reaching.
No heel, no broaching.
Just so much money....

Anyone ever experienced this?

No but it sure looks fun..

[Maine Sail]

W&W = fun times...

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by skipperaris

May I presume to also suggest you loosen your clew a bit to make your main baggier and perhaps to sheet out your boom as far as it will go? Hope you don't mind me saying so.

Fair winds!

Aris

Good catch. This shot was right after we got the boat and were learning her idiosyncracies. The outhaul was "fixed" before and now it is fixed.

You will also notice the kicker has no "extension" sticking out at the boom end. It took us a while to figure out that the boom fitting had never been affixed to the boom. For a month or so we would haul the vang simply compressing the rod in the tube while the kicker happily rode back and forth in the boom groove serving absolutely no purpose - LOL.

We also don't like to release the boom too much further due to chafe on the aft swept spreaders.

But you are spot on; big chested main for downwind sialing.

We are much better at sail trim these days. Racing does that for you.