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Old 18-03-2016, 05:45   #121
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Yes, I agree. Snubbers do break. I have broken many. To work properly snubbers need a lot of stretch so they are working close to their limit. The chain needs to be secured as a back up. This can be a chain stopper, a short strong "snubber" or a hook/shackle arrangement.

In addition, in severe conditions it is worth considering having a back up second long snubber.

Snubbers break with an enormous bang that would wake the dead, so you will be generally aware of the failure, but it takes some time to rig an additional snubber. Loosing the stretch is bad enough but placing this load on the directly on the gypsy is a recipe for dragging with a broken windlass.
If the snubber breaks - and I have broken a few - and you have no other belay on the chain, the windlass will never stop the rode. You will likely lose your ground tackle before you can even get on deck. It's a recipe for being on the rocks.

Properly belaying the chain is absolutely essential for safe anchoring.

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Old 18-03-2016, 05:52   #122
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Yes, that is fine. At 20 knots there is plenty of catenary to provide stretch. A snubber is not necessary for holding.

For those boats that don't have a chain stopper (I seem to recall you have one) I think a short snubber to take the load off the windlass, and preserve the bearings, even in these light conditions is a good idea, especially while setting the anchor. I think giving mechanical components as easy a life as possible is a good idea, but it is difficult to know in cases like this if it makes any practical difference.

Personally, I generally use a long snubber even in settled conditions. It means I don't have to sleep with one ear listening for deteriorating conditions.

If you can set up a snubber rigged from the stern (this is not practical on many boats) there is little effort involved in deploying the snubber and no difference between using a long or short snubber.

Systems like this that use best practice as a routine are worth employing where possible. The sea is full of surprises .
I use two snubbers in stormy weather. I usually spring the rode a bit with the second one to reduce yawing.

Your stern cleat snubber works great on my boat. Only downside is it creaks a bit as it works. I use a couple of snatch blocks to lead the snubber fairly around the cabintop. It's really a great advantage to be able to tie it on or untie it without veering or hauling chain. Plus eliminates soiling and chafing it on the bottom. Great idea

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Old 18-03-2016, 06:20   #123
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pirate Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I like your long snubber arrangement and have imitated your technique.

But I was a bit alarmed by the phrase "short snubber to take the load off the windlass"

As the only means of belaying the chain ahead of the windlass? I hope not. I know you would never do this, but I see people regularly with nothing holding the chain to the boat but a snubber. Which, in order to be effective as a snubber, is generally 3 to 4 times weaker than the chain. Or more likely even weaker after months or years of service stretching and chafing as snubbers do.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link - don't reduce the strength of your ground tackle to this. The method of attaching the chain to the boat should be as strong as the chain. It's a different function from snubbing.

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You would likely not approve of mine as you passed by in your dinghy..
However if you stopped and stood up to look on deck you would see that on the Stbd cleat is my long (3m) snubber which is attached to the chain with a rolling hitch.. on the port cleat is a short line with a chain hook held taut by the weight of the bight of surplus chain between the bow roller and the rolling hitch.. then there's the windlass..
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Old 18-03-2016, 06:32   #124
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You would likely not approve of mine as you passed by in your dinghy..
However if you stopped and stood up to look on deck you would see that on the Stbd cleat is my long (3m) snubber which is attached to the chain with a rolling hitch.. on the port cleat is a short line with a chain hook held taut by the weight of the bight of surplus chain between the bow roller and the rolling hitch.. then there's the windlass..
The windlass doesn’t count. It won't hold you.

If the port side line is as strong as your chain, you're OK. If not - well, you've created a weak link.

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Old 18-03-2016, 06:33   #125
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pirate Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I use two snubbers in stormy weather. I usually spring the rode a bit with the second one to reduce yawing.

Your stern cleat snubber works great on my boat. Only downside is it creaks a bit as it works. I use a couple of snatch blocks to lead the snubber fairly around the cabintop. It's really a great advantage to be able to tie it on or untie it without veering or hauling chain. Plus eliminates soiling and chafing it on the bottom. Great idea

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Translation..
Don't have to put ones drink down and go to the bow to adjust..
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Old 18-03-2016, 06:38   #126
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Translation..
Don't have to put ones drink down and go to the bow to adjust..
LOL

Alternative translation - don't have to go the galley to make a new G&T, because first one was spilled in violent yawing.

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Old 18-03-2016, 06:54   #127
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pirate Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The windlass doesn’t count. It won't hold you.

If the port side line is as strong as your chain, you're OK. If not - well, you've created a weak link.

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If the snubber breaks it would take a Tsunami to hurtle the boat back with enough force to break the chain stop..
The reality is if the snubber breaks the boat falls off and the bight of chain is taken up creating noise on the bow roller.. this alerts the crew to the situation and one goes forward to deal with the new situation choosing to either make a new snubber and let out 3m more chain or haul hook and GTF outa Dodge..
It does not mean one grunts, rolls over and goes back to sleep.
As for the stern tied snubber.. if it is going over from the bow roller or the fairlead.. how does it reduce yawing by having 7-10m of line lying on the side deck.. its a wonderment..

PS.. I know the windlass will not hold me.. I was just laying out the sequence along the chain for the less knowledgeable to visualise..
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Old 18-03-2016, 06:56   #128
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

As I read these posts from Dockhead and Nolex I've come to the conclusion that I'm anchoring in the "minor leagues". It's apparent that there are some great varieties in choices and opportunities for anchoring.

I remember driving along the California coast a few years ago seeing boats anchored in marginal protection and rolling in a swell. I was amazed that people would resort to anchor in such places, but this coast offers few opportunities.

I have anchored in winds of hurricane force with setting a series of snubbers to take the stress in turn after one fails. In these conditions I've always had no more than one failed snubber of three set.

I believe my milder anchoring experiences and shorter set in snubber length is my adaptation to my anchoring environment within my cruising range along the US East Coast & Bahamas. This area allows me to anchor in locations with rarely more than a 100 meter fetch to windward and in depths of 3 to 5 meters. A very rare deep anchorage choice for me would be 10 meters!

When I find myself selecting an anchor location with a fetch of many miles such as the bayside of Lower Matecumbe in the Florida Keys, this distance has depths of less than two meters with 0.5M intervals. Strong winds can not result in significant wave heights over this shallow depth.

If you are setting your anchor in sand, mud or clay in a 4M depth with 360* protection, then you can follow a different set of rules.
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Old 18-03-2016, 08:07   #129
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
In a distant past, I used a stern anchor in addition to a bower for beaching in sheltered places: I didn't want to be pushed up the beach at high tide. The stern anchor was also useful for getting away.

Other uses for a stern anchor are as described by boatman: in a narrow and sheltered river, to avoid going aground when the current reverses. Or, sometimes, in a narrow cove, when the wind blows against the swell.

Alain
Thanks for that beautiful picture of one of my favourite places!

Over many years I have only ever used a stern anchor a few times , in order to hold the bows pointing into a swell that was not inline with the wind. In the anchorage pictured, the usual technique at busy times ( and it gets very busy weekends in summer) was to take a stern line ashore and tie it to the rocks, usually via a sacrificial loop so the line can be retrieved for departure MY first time I madthe mistake of no loop and wanted to leave at LW which involved a dinghy shore and 20ft climb to free the line, after which odd shor lengths of line often found around trash bins in boatyards became treasure trove for the future.

Restricting the swing circle is often needed where local practice like in the USA is to use long lengths of rope rode. I'm a fan of all chain rode with enough carried for all chain in the cruising area visited or planned. When we bought our current boat, one of the first 'improvements was to replce the 15ft of chain + 150ft of rope rode with 150ft of 3/8 inch all chain, at the sme time swapping the 'dock queen' polished 30lb claw for a galvanised 45lb Delta ( one size bigger than recommended). On all chain in good holding, and properly dug, in I'm happy enough on a 4:1 scope unless really strong winds are anticipated when I would let out whatever space permitted, why not it does no good in the locker!

WE now live overlookng a small anchorage on the ICW and watch the boats stopping over with interest. It seems the early return snowbirds are headin north right now and we had 3 last night plus 3 'residents'. Of the 3 residents, one is now sunk and sitting I guess partly on the bottom with just the cockpit cover showing above water. Another resident, motor cruiser, is on all rope and swings through a huge selfish circle. the last, a sailboat is anchored fore aft but often is held at 90 degs to the current and across the channel as it sags between the bow and stern anchor rodes, both rope, at least as far as I can see from 150 yds away. Of the truly visitors, 2 were seemingly on all chain and bow anchors only, with scopes short enough not to swing around too much and even miss Mr Selfish on his all rope rode. The anchorage is shallow with maybe only 10ft max in the channel itself and less outside of it. Occasionally barges/tugs will pass by even at night so the channel itself is not a wise spot to pick, especially if like last night no anchor lights were deployed on the 'residents' and one of the true visitors. ( one other had a hard to see mast top light and the other left a mast top tricolor on all night with an all round white above it on as well. Back To the OP, our stern anchor/kedge is a Fortress FX11 so not a true spare for the bow. When we go cruising proper again the original dock queen's polished claw ( currently for sale) will be swapped out with another, likely another Delta, but slightly smaller say 35lb( therecommende size for our boat anyway), or one of the new West concave types ( the choice being the biggest I find that will fit in the aft deck lazarette locker. OR I will find a way to strap the 'dock queen' down out of the way somewhere, OR I will trade the Fortress FX11 up for a FX23. Confusing?, yep but cruising boats is about compromise
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Old 18-03-2016, 10:50   #130
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
If the snubber breaks it would take a Tsunami to hurtle the boat back with enough force to break the chain stop..
The reality is if the snubber breaks the boat falls off and the bight of chain is taken up creating noise on the bow roller.. this alerts the crew to the situation and one goes forward to deal with the new situation choosing to either make a new snubber and let out 3m more chain or haul hook and GTF outa Dodge..
It does not mean one grunts, rolls over and goes back to sleep.
As for the stern tied snubber.. if it is going over from the bow roller or the fairlead.. how does it reduce yawing by having 7-10m of line lying on the side deck.. its a wonderment..

PS.. I know the windlass will not hold me.. I was just laying out the sequence along the chain for the less knowledgeable to visualise..
Aha! So there's a chain stop in there! Why didn't you say so? And why did you say I wouldn't like it? With a chain stop in the picture, I don't see any problem. Maybe you were being ironic, and it went over my head. Wouldn't be the first time.

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Old 18-03-2016, 12:10   #131
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by over40pirate View Post
A few minutes of "pissing about" for a little crew comfort is well worth it to me.
Don't want a cranky mate on board.
It takes less time to turn the boat around, than it takes to read your post and write this.

A common place to sit in the cockpit is facing aft, next to the companionway, with back against the bulkhead.
How much breeze will you get from a wind scoop? Nada. Plus, the dodger blocks air.
Turn the boat around and you and your crew, will agree, that it's a "cool" idea.


I use wind scoops also. They work great. bigger the better.
The best "scoop" I have used, is the dink stowed on the foredeck, with a halyard raising the bow. (Forward hatch has to be under the dink. Duh!)
If it rains, lower the dink a bit, and leave the hatch open

Sometimes it's "cool" to think outside the box.
I have used the foredeck dinghy wind scoop rain shelter often when based i then Europe and very effective it is too. Woke up one morning to find a dozen or so small birds lined up underneath the dinghy out of thewind/rain.The turn the boat round option by leading the rode back to the stern is fine and dandy IF you have a rope rode, using chain would entail some considerable hitching and load swappery Nowadays we also have a center cockpit boat so turning around is not so effective cool breeze wise, however we have 11 opening ports for creatig a cross draught and 5 largish deck hatches, if needs be we can run one of ourtwo aircon units from our little Honda gennie and would probably choose the one that runs our sleeping cabin at least to get it cooled down to start with.
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Old 18-03-2016, 15:28   #132
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

All this information on subbers has been an education. I did not realise a snubber was for anything more than comfort purposes.

My snubber is just a nylon rope i spliced with a chain grab on one end and a loop on the other which goes around a solid post. Its only about 2.4m long.
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Old 18-03-2016, 15:32   #133
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
All this information on subbers has been an education. I did not realise a snubber was for anything more than comfort purposes.

My snubber is just a nylon rope i spliced with a chain grab on one end and a loop on the other which goes around a solid post. Its only about 2.4m long.
I believe you have the right idea.
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Old 19-03-2016, 05:15   #134
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Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
My snubber is attached to one of the stern cleats. It passes over the second bow roller extending a metre or so (a lot more when it stretches), where it is attached to the chain with a soft shackle.

I also have a couple of soft shackles that are used as "blocks" or fairleads to keep the snubber away from anything that will cause chafe.

The length is about 13m.
That is an interesting set up which gives me some good ideas. Would be great to see a photo.

Thanks,

G2L
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Old 19-03-2016, 05:42   #135
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pirate Re: When to Set a Stern Anchor?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Aha! So there's a chain stop in there! Why didn't you say so? And why did you say I wouldn't like it? With a chain stop in the picture, I don't see any problem. Maybe you were being ironic, and it went over my head. Wouldn't be the first time.

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I did.. but you came back with 'Weak Link'... read again Amigo...
Second short line on deck that weight of bight keeps taut..
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