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Old 13-03-2016, 07:01   #61
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by CharlesV View Post
They never once were without sails anytime they were not anchored, moored, docked, whatever. They and the boat survived everything including surfing giant waves, any storms and capsize too--WITH SAILS.
Maybe they wouldn't have capsized if they had the good sense to furl the sails in time.

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Originally Posted by CharlesV View Post
I dont get it, yours and other similar posts.

In the orig post, he was headed to land. In your scene a storm pops up. Isnt the wisest thing to head back out to sea to get searoom and heave-to until conditions improve to approach the landing either by sail or motor? Isnt motoring to land in a storm the greatest way to risk a crash? If not, why not?
Maybe with a hurricane, it's often wisest to head further to sea, but with localized storms, there's no reason a well-found boat can't approach a port or roadstead in poor weather. I already gave my example on the Bahamas bank, with the anchorage in sight, in clear weather, while we were just a few miles away being pounded with sideways rain. What possible reason would we have to heave to in that case?
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Old 13-03-2016, 07:27   #62
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Has anyone read the original post?

He's after advice for 20 day passages and 3-5 day passages.

Its NOT whatever feels right!

Fuel calculations are vital.

Even without propulsion, using the engine to generate electricity uses fuel on a 20 day passage that will effect motoring time.

I am as interested as the OP in finding out how others calculate fuel/motoring etc on 20 day passages. I would like to know how others do it.
If fuel limited there isn't any other opinion other than knowing how much you use and planning around it.

Everything else seems just internet arguing.
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Old 13-03-2016, 07:46   #63
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Maybe with a hurricane, it's often wisest to head further to sea, but with localized storms, there's no reason a well-found boat can't approach a port or roadstead in poor weather. I already gave my example on the Bahamas bank, with the anchorage in sight, in clear weather, while we were just a few miles away being pounded with sideways rain. What possible reason would we have to heave to in that case?
It very much depends on the entrance. If you've got a bar crossing, or if it's an onshore gale, or wind against tide, you may need to stand off and heave to. Not only, by any means, in case of a hurricane. In fact I would say that in probably the majority of cases of really bad weather (F9 or more), it's better to stand off than attempt to enter a port. I know relatively few ports which can be entered safely in really any weather (e.g. Cherbourg).
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Old 13-03-2016, 08:28   #64
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

When the wind dies very close to the destination and we can motor to the place before dark, we will motor as a rule.

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Old 13-03-2016, 10:31   #65
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

Thanks everyone for the replies, these bring up some really good points and I think the differences in boats, situation, and the person bring an overall comfort and satisfaction to the original question.

It seems maybe there are two camps, those who have rules and those who do it by feel. And obviously there will be those who are a blend of both.

I like the points about knowing how far you can motor while keeping in mind the next available place to get fuel. This info contributes to the overall enjoyment of the voyage. If my rule says motor or if I feel like motoring then I should (no matter where I'm at). The amount of fuel and range will definitely change how one feels and impact ones rules.

But with enough fuel, it seems those with rules take less consideration for the situation. 1. Because it's easier. Or 2. Because they have had enough experience with "feel" to know that the rule works.

It also seems that rules are more about getting to a destination with a desired experience, while by feel, it's about getting to a destination with an unknown experience.

Oh and I love the topic about the Moitessier Syndrome. I think it highlights a lot. And maybe that's another difference between those with rules and those who go by feel

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Old 13-03-2016, 10:34   #66
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

I'm one of those pragmatic sailors. I have a float plan that allows for variances but if the wind is on the nose, I motor. I get criticism from the crew but I keep them on course and on time.
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Old 13-03-2016, 12:51   #67
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

I do not trust the whole 'feel' thing. When we say 'I go by the feel' - does it not imply having a rule of going by the feel???

We do not have to verbalize nor codify our rules to apply them. As a rule, the pupil dilates to the light, much as the pupil neither knows nor is aware of the rule.

Where there are no rules, and no problems found by applying them, there is no learning. Learning is apply the rule, find why it does not work, improve, try again. You cannot have this when you 'go by the feel'.

I test rums by the feel. As a rule, I get pretty drunk before the sun comes up.

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Old 13-03-2016, 15:28   #68
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When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I do not trust the whole 'feel' thing. When we say 'I go by the feel' - does it not imply having a rule of going by the feel???

We do not have to verbalize nor codify our rules to apply them. As a rule, the pupil dilates to the light...

b.

Then maybe the difference I see is that one is predetermined (rule) and the other is determined in the moment (feel)

And maybe it's all "feel", because one must say "I feel like following this rule". Unless you're looking at an even lower level and saying "rules" guide how we "feel". Then the difference would be natural rules (like the eye example) vs human imposed.

I think as long as we allow options in the moment it's "feel" if no options it's a "rule". And maybe when making a passage it works out best to have a bit of both
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Old 13-03-2016, 16:00   #69
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here's one possible reason you wouldn't motor in:

Moitessier Syndrome


And I'm actually not joking. I find that after a few days at sea, all the "keenness" to get back to land disappears, and the sight of land fills me with disappointment. I think it's like that for many sailors. I can very well imagine just really not wanting to put the motor on, in that situation.

Something like that might have been a factor in the divorce discussed above. Maybe she was desperate to get back to land, but he was desperate to avoid it.
That was a facinating thread to read Dockhead. Your response to one of The posts was very Romantic romance of the seas and sailing.
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Old 13-03-2016, 16:10   #70
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Then maybe the difference I see is that one is predetermined (rule) and the other is determined in the moment (feel)

And maybe it's all "feel", because one must say "I feel like following this rule". Unless you're looking at an even lower level and saying "rules" guide how we "feel". Then the difference would be natural rules (like the eye example) vs human imposed.

I think as long as we allow options in the moment it's "feel" if no options it's a "rule". And maybe when making a passage it works out best to have a bit of both
Maybe there is another way to classify the factors for deciding whether or not to motor into port:

First, I would say safety of boat and crew. This includes an incoming storm, possibility of port closing, problem with the boat, health and welfare of the crew, timing arrival with tides, shipping, darkness...

Second are the capabilities of the boat. For example, many boats don't sail well to weather. Some get their asses kicked in quartering seas. If the destination involves turning to a difficult point of sail then maybe it's time to motor the last little bit. Some don't have instrumentation, such as AIS, radar or GPS chart plotters conveniently at the helm. Or the crew may be too exhausted to manage the arrival. Or there may be an issue with engine or fuel.

Third would be schedule either due to family issues, business, impending divorce....

Fourth, it may be simply a matter of style. Many don't mind motoring, and some of us see it as the worst form of torture.
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Old 13-03-2016, 17:01   #71
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

A boat that sails well needs only a small engine, many do without. Boats that do not sail well will start motoring earlier and spend more time steaming.

A small boat with a big motor is unlikely to sail very well - small diesel engine hp/weight is very bad news for the small boat owner.

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Old 13-03-2016, 17:09   #72
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by theway View Post
Then maybe the difference I see is that one is predetermined (rule) and the other is determined in the moment (feel)

And maybe it's all "feel", because one must say "I feel like following this rule". Unless you're looking at an even lower level and saying "rules" guide how we "feel". Then the difference would be natural rules (like the eye example) vs human imposed.

I think as long as we allow options in the moment it's "feel" if no options it's a "rule". And maybe when making a passage it works out best to have a bit of both
Bingo!

My alter ego from California has finally discovered me! ;-)

I feel it is all just in the angle we take on things. To me, the feel and the rule are just two modalities of the same reality. My dad used to say 'if you put your finger into my nose then you have a finger in the nose and I too have a finger in the nose'. I never really got along well with my dad but I must admit he had a way to put complex ideas into simple words.

If you are sailing towards Canary Islands, PLS pop in and we will have a beer.

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Old 13-03-2016, 17:10   #73
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

The OP was about being becalmed... do you turn the motor on? Of course if there is a storm forecast you'll be seeing winds... lee shore?

This OP was not about motoring when faced with too much wind... or wind on the nose.
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Old 13-03-2016, 17:20   #74
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
It doesn't matter how near or far for me. At about 3.5 knots or less I start motorsailing.
The sad philosophy of so many "sailors" today.

Paul
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Old 13-03-2016, 17:24   #75
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Re: When to motor the rest of the way?

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The OP was about being becalmed... do you turn the motor on? Of course if there is a storm forecast you'll be seeing winds... lee shore?

This OP was not about motoring when faced with too much wind... or wind on the nose.

Good point... So the topic could probably be renamed.... "How patient are you when becalmed with your destination in sight?"

But I'm glad this has opened up to a broader discussion.

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