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Old 04-07-2017, 16:47   #31
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Re: What would you do?

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Originally Posted by 30yearslater View Post
All these geniuses calling me stupid. When did sailors become such sissies that they need to rely on a radio of questionable worth. What were they thinking taking the clipper ships around the great capes without
VHF. I'm sure glad the Brits, Spaniards, French and everyone else didn't concern themselves with crying for help every time $hit hit the fan. Did you Einstein's read the post or hop to an inaccurate conclusion? There are no ORANGE Solas parachute flares. The color is RED. As to cell coverage, there is continuous coverage on Lake Ontario.
Ah, a lot of those Clipper Ships ended up on the rocks! Bet they wished they had something like VHF !
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Old 04-07-2017, 17:26   #32
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Re: What would you do?

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Originally Posted by seaman-lew View Post
you can contact the CG with a cell
Around here I believe is *16 to call the CG on any cell phone.

I agree with most of the posts above. A handheld VHF is $99 at walmart USA, and not much more in canada. I just sold a pair of unidens for $80 each. No excuse for not having a VHF. What if YOU were the one in distress?

Yes, call with the cell phone. I would call 911. Its an emergency, lives could be in danger.
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Old 04-07-2017, 17:28   #33
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Re: What would you do?

If you had a VHF in the first place (even a cheap handheld) the training exercise would have been broadcast with the notice to shipping, and perhaps even broadcast on 16 just prior. GET A VHF and turn it on. $99 at walmart. And if you see a flare, you MUST do something...that could be ME in distress.

Sorry about all the CAPS but this is important stuff.
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Old 04-07-2017, 18:58   #34
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Re: What would you do?

Strictly speaking SOLAS Chap 5 Reg 33 to provide assistance does not legally apply to small sail boats or yachts. It only applies to larger merchant navy vessels. But do we need a bloody rule to state that we should go and help when lives are at risk. As humans we have a moral obligation to help, so pleasure boaters, fisherman etc since time memorial have always done that. What you should have done. You should call the coast guard on your cell phone and proceed towards the location of the flare. If the coast guard informs you that one of their vessel or chopper is on the way and your services are not required, then you can proceed on your journey. Otherwise just proceed to the location and offer what ever assistance you can. If you could have just saved one life, it would be worth it.
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Old 04-07-2017, 19:21   #35
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Re: What would you do?

As it happens, Ann and I have been in a similar situation off the East coast of Oz a few years ago. Night time, some 10 miles offshore, several red flares seen in the direction of land, somewhat ahead of the beam. Made a general call on 16 to see if anyone else had seen them and to see if the flare shooter was on the air. No response heard, so we started in the general direction of the flare sighting (and because of the short duration of the flare's flight, getting a good bearing was difficult, but we did our best).

In Australia, there is no equivalent to the USCG for SAR issues. Everything is routed through volunteer marine rescue groups, spotted up and down the coast. Most of them are not manned 24 hours, but there is a repeater network that usually will get a response to an emergency call. We eventually got through to one and made our report, saying that we were en route at best speed, but had no firm idea of the location or of the distance we'd have to travel. To be honest, the operator didn't seem to know what to do, but some time later called us back saying that there was a scheduled flare demonstration at a YC in the general area we were aimed at. Scheduled, but NOT announced on the VHF at the time of the demo... pretty bad form IMO!

So, we said that we were resuming our travels and were no longer responding. I felt a bit concerned because there was no positive ID of the origin of the flares, but couldn't see conducting a search with no more guidance, and no support from authorities. never heard of a boat in distress in that time and location, so I guess it ended OK.

One does get a bit of an adrenaline rush when the flare light off up in the sky...

Jim
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Old 04-07-2017, 19:46   #36
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Re: What would you do?

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Originally Posted by hiebert View Post
Strictly speaking SOLAS Chap 5 Reg 33 to provide assistance does not legally apply to small sail boats or yachts. It only applies to larger merchant navy vessels.
Do you have a reference to support that?

Here's a couple of references to suggest that you are mistaken:

FWIW - Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOLAS_Convention
"It also adds an obligation for all vessels' masters to offer assistance to those in distress and controls the use of lifesaving signals with specific requirements regarding danger and distress messages. It is different from the other chapters, which apply to certain classes of commercial shipping, in that these requirements apply to all vessels and their crews, including yachts and private craft, on all voyages and trips including local ones"


The official UK interpretation:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ure-boat-users

where you can download:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...00714_Ver1.pdf


"
On 1 July 2002, some new regulations came into force, which directly affect you as a pleasure boat user. These regulations are part of Chapter V of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea,
otherwise known as SOLAS V. Most of the SOLAS convention only applies to large commercial ships, but parts of Chapter V apply to small, privately owned pleasure craft. The regulations described in this leaflet apply to you
...
Assistance to other Craft
Regulations V/31, V/32 and V/33 require you:
• to let the Coastguard and any other vessels in the vicinity
know if you encounter anything that could cause a serious
hazard to navigation, if it has not already been reported.
You can do this by calling the Coastguard on VHF, if you
have it on board, or by telephoning them at the earliest
opportunity. The Coastguard will then warn other vessels
in the area.
to respond to any distress signal that you see or hear and
help anyone or any boat in distress as best you can.
"


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Old 04-07-2017, 19:52   #37
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Re: What would you do?

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Originally Posted by 30yearslater View Post
All these geniuses calling me stupid. When did sailors become such sissies that they need to rely on a radio of questionable worth. What were they thinking taking the clipper ships around the great capes without
VHF. I'm sure glad the Brits, Spaniards, French and everyone else didn't concern themselves with crying for help every time $hit hit the fan. Did you Einstein's read the post or hop to an inaccurate conclusion? There are no ORANGE Solas parachute flares. The color is RED. As to cell coverage, there is continuous coverage on Lake Ontario.
VHF is a very good communication tool to alert everyone in the vicinity of an occurrence and to be heard. The sailboat action for the flares sighting was very good even with a cell phone. However the sailboat was out of the loop of communications. The reach Canadian Coast Guard by cellular phones is easy... simply enter *16 then hit send and this will link you up to the closest Coast Guard Station to you. Now for the flares sighting and the comment that this was a training exercise... I wonder because since 911 there has been strict ban on use of pyrotechnics or flares use for training purposes. I was doing flares training for Coast Guard and the auxiliaries and for Power Squadron events and I was strictly forbidden since 911.
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Old 04-07-2017, 19:54   #38
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Re: What would you do?

G'day 30yearslater,
I would like to answer this question from a different slant. You are the person who has set off the distress flare what would you want a mariner or who has sighted your flare to do. Personally I would hope that who ever sighted my distress flare made every endeavour to report the incident and attempt to locate me.




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Old 04-07-2017, 20:35   #39
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Re: What would you do?

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VHF is a very good communication tool to alert everyone in the vicinity of an occurrence and to be heard. The sailboat action for the flares sighting was very good even with a cell phone. However the sailboat was out of the loop of communications. The reach Canadian Coast Guard by cellular phones is easy... simply enter *16 then hit send and this will link you up to the closest Coast Guard Station to you. Now for the flares sighting and the comment that this was a training exercise... I wonder because since 911 there has been strict ban on use of pyrotechnics or flares use for training purposes. I was doing flares training for Coast Guard and the auxiliaries and for Power Squadron events and I was strictly forbidden since 911.
Please note that the incident I reported was on the East coast of Australia. Yes, other countries have East coasts too! And here in Oz, there are fairly frequent flare demos put on by various agencies, clubs and the general population on New Years Eve.

Many, perhaps most are well advertised in advance, but often only locally. This puts the travelling cruiser in the dark as it were.

Jim

PS I'm puzzled by the relationship between an official flare demo and post 9/11 paranoia. Do they think that terrorists will use a few flares to attack us, or to distract us while they sneak ashore in their black RIBs?
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Old 04-07-2017, 22:29   #40
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Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30yearslater View Post
All these geniuses calling me stupid. When did sailors become such sissies that they need to rely on a radio of questionable worth. What were they thinking taking the clipper ships around the great capes without
VHF. I'm sure glad the Brits, Spaniards, French and everyone else didn't concern themselves with crying for help every time $hit hit the fan. Did you Einstein's read the post or hop to an inaccurate conclusion? There are no ORANGE Solas parachute flares. The color is RED. As to cell coverage, there is continuous coverage on Lake Ontario.
Under the circumstances, and the facts as originally stated, I do not see any question that the correct response was described.. I was and am surprised about the cell phone 30 years ago -they were not yet common- if it was 30 years ago. I would not not attempt to distinguish my interpretation red and orange flare colors. Everything in that general range is red, as in emergency. I like to think the correct action was described, even if the story is a hypothetical and subject to doubt. I could not justify any other response. I also realize that bogus distress call are a reality, but when sailing I feel obligated to react properly to that which I see, hear, or otherwise observe.
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Old 04-07-2017, 23:48   #41
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Re: What would you do?

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The big benefit of VHF is its ability to connect to everyone on the water, unlike a cell.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:47   #42
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Re: What would you do?

The word stupid was uncalled for and unfortunate
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:33   #43
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Re: What would you do?

I'd rather use a phone than a VHF any day. With a phone, it you get no answer, you can still usually leave a message and tell them what you think of their failure to answer. I've often wondered on dark nights when trying to get through or around a fishing fleet if I'm the only one with a VHF--I get no answer from those guys, and all I want to know is how best to get past without causing them any inconvenience or danger.
To me the VHF is a big disappointment, and I now always proceed assuming the other guy has none, ready to change course even if I'm the stand-on vessel. It's just not worth assuming the other guy has any spark of intelligence.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:56   #44
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Re: What would you do?

VHF versus mobile phone. Why suffer from the tyranny of OR when you can have the genius of AND?! Both have strengths and weaknesses. You can also use both; e.g. call the Coast Guard (or other similar SAR agency) and then call on the VHF, thus alerting other vessels.

Having said this, I have no issue with him not having a VHF. Yes, it is better to have one, but many people do day sails on Optis, Sunfish, etc. and have no radio. For that matter, I don't now of many kite surfers or Jet Ski people who have them either (uh oh, did I just open up a can of worms?!). He didn't describe the type of sailing but most likely it was just a sail of a few hours. A handheld is better than no radio, but even there one only has a range of a few miles. He did have the phone. Myself, I usually have a base unit and a hand held and a phone for coastal sailing. Again, I think it is better to have one, but not having it isn't the end of the world.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:13   #45
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Re: What would you do?

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Originally Posted by 30yearslater View Post
All these geniuses calling me stupid. When did sailors become such sissies that they need to rely on a radio of questionable worth. What were they thinking taking the clipper ships around the great capes without
VHF. I'm sure glad the Brits, Spaniards, French and everyone else didn't concern themselves with crying for help every time $hit hit the fan. Did you Einstein's read the post or hop to an inaccurate conclusion? There are no ORANGE Solas parachute flares. The color is RED. As to cell coverage, there is continuous coverage on Lake Ontario.
On our O'Day 20 40 years ago, we sailed without a VHF or a cell phone and did just fine, so I'm with you there. But these days a hand held VHF can be had at West Marine for under $100, so why not get one just in case this happens again. We have three on board these days, don't use them much except to monitor ch 16, but we have responded a couple of times to distress calls while in Spain, which all turned out to be stupid stuff like someone running out of fuel.
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