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Old 13-11-2014, 03:06   #76
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

So if we take a hypothetical situation on typical cruising yacht

A crew member gets hit by the boom. The remaining crew can handle the boat safely so there is no danger to the vessel.

In the skippers judgment the crew member has life threatening injuries that require urgent medical treatment.

Should the skipper issue a MAYDAY or PAN PAN?

I would issue a MAYDAY.
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Old 13-11-2014, 03:27   #77
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

ONe of the distinctions involved here is other shipping. Any ship hearing a '"Mayday" call should immediately plot their own position, the position of the ship in distress and calculate the approximate steaming time until you are able to come to the assistance of the stricken ship.

So issuing a a "mayday" puts everyone in an alert status.

A "pan-pan" on the other hand will not cause this. Anyone hearing a "pan-pan" should continue to listen to see what the emergency is and be prepared to render assistance if they can (in the case noted above, if you have a doctor on board and can reach the stricken vessel quickly then you notify the rescue agency that you have such competence and will make steam in haste towards the stricken boat)

I can't comment on other areas of the world - but here in Denmark, a "pan-pan" gets an immediate reaction.
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Old 13-11-2014, 09:49   #78
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shufti View Post
MAybe in the US, FV, but in Australia the distinction is more clear cut than that. Boat in immediate peril - MayDay. Person in immediate peril OR boat in danger but not immediate danger - 'PanPan'. Our regs on use state this categorically. I've got time in VMR (voluntary marine rescue) as well so while I have no idea how it's done in the USA - I know exactly whats required/expected down here.

As an aside - we're not as fortunate as you guys and do not have a single professional marine rescue organisation. Everything from our surf lifesavers to our coast guard and VMR (ridiculously, two completely separate volunteer organisations that refuse to amalgamate) is completely donation-funded.

My point was that if even if you use the wrong emergency declaration, someone (from a resue organisation) is still going to come help if they can. No one will take a PAN PAN call less seriously than a mayday - especially once the circumstances for the call are known. I can also assure you that when either a mayday or panpan comes over the air - whoever is on radio duty at VMR/CG takes them both very seriously. They are both treated as 'screams for help'.
We will be as unfortunate as you is they keep defunding SAR for the CG along with devoting more of the existing resources to drug interdiction.
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Old 13-11-2014, 14:41   #79
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Shufti,

"Completely donation funded"? This may be wrong, but my understanding was that the volunteer services were granted a government stipend based on the number of VHF contacts they had per diem, has this been changed?

I do know of a situation where a vessel that was aground near Southport, Qld., that requested a pull off, was later asked to join the VMR (at $55). I suggest that one in that situation, (unable to get off by self), would feel guilty to not "donate"", and that's
a little close to extortion for me! However, they did pull the 27 tonne boat off first! Good on 'em.

New South Wales has been trying to combine them all into VMR this and that, and people are slowly getting used to it, but to me, VMR Eden will always be "Coastal Patrol
Eden", as it began as Royal Volunteer Coastal Patrol Eden, quite a mouthful.
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Old 13-11-2014, 21:07   #80
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

What can and cannot be done when it comes to 'Distress Alerting' aka 'Mayday' aka 'flames in a barrel' etc etc has been established by the ITU and IMO and cannot be modified on the whim of signatories.

This what the ITU has to say...

"Section II – Distress alerting and distress calling (WRC-07) 32.8 A – General
32.9 § 7 1) The transmission of a distress alert or a distress call indicates that a mobile unit or person is threatened by grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance. (WRC-07)"
Lookee here.. page 312 http://life.itu.int/radioclub/rr/chapt-7.pdf

The information promulgated by organisations in Australia that says anything different to this is wrong.

Simples......

If my memory serves the definition of 'distress' was modified to include people about 20 years ago.
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Old 14-11-2014, 02:45   #81
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
What can and cannot be done when it comes to 'Distress Alerting' aka 'Mayday' aka 'flames in a barrel' etc etc has been established by the ITU and IMO and cannot be modified on the whim of signatories.

This what the ITU has to say...

"Section II – Distress alerting and distress calling (WRC-07) 32.8 A – General
32.9 § 7 1) The transmission of a distress alert or a distress call indicates that a mobile unit or person is threatened by grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance. (WRC-07)"
Lookee here.. page 312 http://life.itu.int/radioclub/rr/chapt-7.pdf

The information promulgated by organisations in Australia that says anything different to this is wrong.

Simples......

If my memory serves the definition of 'distress' was modified to include people about 20 years ago.
AFAIK, in Oz, the Radio Communications Act 1992 is the only controlling legislation for surface radio communications. The shipload of the other various maritime acts for maritime activities are best listed here: https://www.amsa.gov.au/about-amsa/c...n/legislation/

Regardless of what the signatories of the ITU and IMO have signed up to, the law is what the signatories enact afterwards (whim or no whim ).
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Old 14-11-2014, 02:47   #82
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
So if we take a hypothetical situation on typical cruising yacht

A crew member gets hit by the boom. The remaining crew can handle the boat safely so there is no danger to the vessel.

In the skippers judgment the crew member has life threatening injuries that require urgent medical treatment.

Should the skipper issue a MAYDAY or PAN PAN?

I would issue a MAYDAY.
Me too
Beg forgiveness later, if necessary.
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Old 14-11-2014, 03:52   #83
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

About the OZ situation.

I have read this entire thread before commenting and frankly I think a few are trying to make this out harder than it is. The golden rule is, if in doubt call.

But I was also a little concerned at posts suggesting that in Australia a mayday is used for when a 'ship' is in grave and/or imminent danger, and a pan pan is used for when a person is in grave and imminent danger. That's simply not correct and has never been in the 18 or so years ive had my radio certificate. Last year I did the Elements of Ship Side Safety which I don't recall that this distinction either.

The Australian Maritime collage (AMC) has a downloadable book on radio communications which is a great guide. It states a ''mayday' is for 'grave and imminent danger of vessel or person on that vessel'. A pan pan is used for any other urgent need that is not imminent.

Now we can all debate scenarios, but I honestly don't believe it's that difficult. It's meant to be simple. The danger is either 'imminent', e.g about to happen, in which case a Mayday is appropriate or the danger isn't imminent but there is still an urgency, in which case a Pan Pan.
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Old 14-11-2014, 04:14   #84
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
About the OZ situation.

I have read this entire thread before commenting and frankly I think a few are trying to make this out harder than it is. The golden rule is, if in doubt call.

But I was also a little concerned at posts suggesting that in Australia a mayday is used for when a 'ship' is in grave and/or imminent danger, and a pan pan is used for when a person is in grave and imminent danger. That's simply not correct and has never been in the 18 or so years ive had my radio certificate. Last year I did the Elements of Ship Side Safety which I don't recall that this distinction either
.

The Australian Maritime collage (AMC) has a downloadable book on radio communications which is a great guide. It states a ''mayday' is for 'grave and imminent danger of vessel or person on that vessel'. A pan pan is used for any other urgent need that is not imminent.

Now we can all debate scenarios, but I honestly don't believe it's that difficult. It's meant to be simple. The danger is either 'imminent', e.g about to happen, in which case a Mayday is appropriate or the danger isn't imminent but there is still an urgency, in which case a Pan Pan.
IMO, the problem stems from all the various bit and bobs published by a lot of different government departments and different state based organisations.

They are not detailed and concise enough and have differing viewpoints presumably expressed by various the public servants writing the stuff. The AMC guide is usually taken as the "bible" but even it contains inconsistencies. I once approached the AMC about some that I found and while they accepted there were inconsistencies, frankly they weren't interested in sorting them out. Mainly, I presume, because it isn't really a problem and as you state, "I honestly don't believe it's that difficult. It's meant to be simple".

Again, regardless of what the various publications say (including the AMC), I believe the only legal restraints are those contained the "The Radio Communications Act 1992". I can't recall chapter and verse (and I don't have a copy handy), but I recall the definition was pretty simple, common-sense and straightforward - as you have suggested.
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Old 14-11-2014, 04:36   #85
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
IMO, the problem stems from all the various bit and bobs published by a lot of different government departments and different state based organisations.

They are not detailed and concise enough and have differing viewpoints presumably expressed by various the public servants writing the stuff. The AMC guide is usually taken as the "bible" but even it contains inconsistencies. I once approached the AMC about some that I found and while they accepted there were inconsistencies, frankly they weren't interested in sorting them out. Mainly, I presume, because it isn't really a problem and as you state, "I honestly don't believe it's that difficult. It's meant to be simple".

Again, regardless of what the various publications say (including the AMC), I believe the only legal restraints are those contained the "The Radio Communications Act 1992". I can't recall chapter and verse (and I don't have a copy handy), but I recall the definition was pretty simple, common-sense and straightforward - as you have suggested.
You are quite correct. The ultimate definition is what is in the Act. I've been reading through a copy but can't find it in the Act. I'm suspecting it's under the regulations. I'll post the definition when I find it.
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Old 14-11-2014, 08:12   #86
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Isn't it extraordinary how different countries are!?

Sure as hell, if you are on my boat and break you leg off I will call a MAYDAY. I will probably throw you overboard too as I hate blood on the deck.

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Old 14-11-2014, 11:15   #87
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

I've had a good trawl through that link... https://www.amsa.gov.au/about-amsa/c...n/legislation/ and found nothing suggesting any modification to the ITU/IMO definition. Found pretty near bugger all actually.... as it says...its 'corporate information'
But I did find this page... https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-r...sar-incidents/


"The damaged yacht, Crazy Jack


AMSA successfully coordinated the ******medical evacuation of two crew members****** of yacht Crazy Jack, 40 kilometres east of East Timor responding to their *****406 MHz distress beacon alert***** ( ie they sent a 'Mayday'..el Ping ). The yacht’s crew had been injured when the mast and rigging failed. At the request of the rescue coordination centre the MV Posh Shearwater altered course to assist the yacht and its injured crew.

On arrival at the scene, the MV Posh Shearwater transferred the crew on board using a crane and cargo net and with the assistance of Careflight Queensland (AMSA’s contracted telemedical advice service), stabilised the condition of the crew. The yacht was set adrift and the ship made its way to rendezvous with the HMAS Wollongong, an Australian Navy patrol boat. The injured crew members were transferred aboard HMAS Wollongong and taken to Darwin for hospital treatment."

No mention there if them doing the wrong thing...... just sayin.
Anywaz its satdee morning and I have a boat to fix... cya
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Old 14-11-2014, 13:14   #88
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I've had a good trawl through that link... https://www.amsa.gov.au/about-amsa/c...n/legislation/ and found nothing suggesting any modification to the ITU/IMO definition. Found pretty near bugger all actually.... as it says...its 'corporate information'
But I did find this page... https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-r...sar-incidents/


"The damaged yacht, Crazy Jack


AMSA successfully coordinated the ******medical evacuation of two crew members****** of yacht Crazy Jack, 40 kilometres east of East Timor responding to their *****406 MHz distress beacon alert***** ( ie they sent a 'Mayday'..el Ping ). The yacht’s crew had been injured when the mast and rigging failed. At the request of the rescue coordination centre the MV Posh Shearwater altered course to assist the yacht and its injured crew.

On arrival at the scene, the MV Posh Shearwater transferred the crew on board using a crane and cargo net and with the assistance of Careflight Queensland (AMSA’s contracted telemedical advice service), stabilised the condition of the crew. The yacht was set adrift and the ship made its way to rendezvous with the HMAS Wollongong, an Australian Navy patrol boat. The injured crew members were transferred aboard HMAS Wollongong and taken to Darwin for hospital treatment."

No mention there if them doing the wrong thing...... just sayin.
Anywaz its satdee morning and I have a boat to fix... cya
Calling a "mayday" is not the same thing as setting off an Epirb. Was that e.g a quote, or did you put it in there?
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Old 14-11-2014, 13:19   #89
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

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Isn't it extraordinary how different countries are!?

Sure as hell, if you are on my boat and break you leg off I will call a MAYDAY. I will probably throw you overboard too as I hate blood on the deck.



It is odd. I wouldn't call a mayday for a broken leg. A Pan pan would be quite sufficient, and I'd also set off an epirb too. But I'd not use a 'mayday'.

(I hate screamers so I might do the overboard bit)
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Old 14-11-2014, 13:57   #90
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re: What Justifies a "MAYDAY"?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post


It is odd. I wouldn't call a mayday for a broken leg. A Pan pan would be quite sufficient, and I'd also set off an epirb too. But I'd not use a 'mayday'.

(I hate screamers so I might do the overboard bit)
For me, it would depend on the nature of the break, how shorthanded you are, and how far from assistance one is. Maday for a compound fracture, or if the leg were partially detached. Simple break, maybe not. Maybe just straighten it and pop the inflatable splint on it, and take the person to shore.

Rustic Charm, if you're singlehanding and you break a leg badly, you really ought to call a mayday, because the pain, once the shock wears off, will affect your ability to return the boat to the dock, and indeed, to get off the boat.

Depends, therefore, also, on how long it would take to get the person to help via one's own boat, as in newt's situation where he had the crew take him to the ambulance. That might have to be a Pan-pan, in order to arrange the ambulance.

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