What is considered a normal degree of heeling?

[tinkrman69]

I used to own a watkins 27 logged about 3500 nm on her. 15 deg heel in 15 knot winds at the beam or forward is normal with genni and main. I reef the main to the first point and run a 120% genni in 18 to 22 knot winds to windward about 50 deg of apparent wind and maintain 15 to 20 deg of heel

the further to windward you go the more heel you'll get, not withstanding sail trim and area That's a tuff boat and heavy for it's size. she doesn't do well to wind once loaded with supplies and gear for any cruise of more than a weekend altho a larger rudder and the forestay two foot out on a bow sprit make a huge difference.

Have fun with her and experiment with different conditions, whilst staying close till your comfortable.

[chadc]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Your boat will be fine in winds probably well up into the 20's with a Bal/Disp of almost 47% and a SA/Disp of 14.79

As for the degree of heel, it all depends on you and what you are doing.

Are you after forward speed to blast through large waves?

Are you trying to sail close to the wind?

Are you racing and trying to be very efficient getting to the upwind mark? Or Upwind fix?

Or, are you simply having fun, on autopilot, and having a beer on the cabin roof on the windward side enjoying the view while the boat is heeled 30 degrees plus.


Watkins 27:

WATKINS 27 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I'm just trying to sail and enjoy myself doing it any time I have the chance

However, I would like to be able to plow through rough seas when needed and maybe it's my imagination but I think the boat likes to sail close to the wind but then again I'm no sail trim master so it could just be how I have the sails trimmed.

I have no desire to race just to enjoy sailing.

An autopilot would be nice but I don't have one, well I do but it's an old tiller master I found in the boat after I bought it and I haven't tried it out yet so I don't know if it works and I'll hold off on any beer drinking until after I have more experience sailing.

[chadc]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

chadc,

I think the guys above have got you covered for a while, so I'll just add one more variable for you to consider: when the boat's sails are old and blown out (as they often are on 2nd [or more] hand boats, by the time they come to you), your boat will heel more for a given wind speed. Get her new sails, and she'll go faster and heel less.

Ann

New sails are definitely in the plan as soon as I can afford them.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by chadc

I'm just trying to sail and enjoy myself doing it any time I have the chance

However, I would like to be able to plow through rough seas when needed and maybe it's my imagination but I think the boat likes to sail close to the wind but then again I'm no sail trim master so it could just be how I have the sails trimmed.

I have no desire to race just to enjoy sailing.

An autopilot would be nice but I don't have one, well I do but it's an old tiller master I found in the boat after I bought it and I haven't tried it out yet so I don't know if it works and I'll hold off on any beer drinking until after I have more experience sailing.

Break out the old autopilot and play around with it on a day with winds around 8-10 knots.

Look (tillermaster info). If you are an old electronics tech like me, you are set:

http://www.electricmarine.com/web/ti...ster_main.html

My boat came with an old Navico Tiller autopilot. It worked great until I lost it overboard. Yeah, I got used to not tightening the connector plug so I could unhook it at times and steer the boat with the main while reading. The tiller beep noise was getting on my nerves........

Some how on a day with winds between 24-30 for 4-5 hours or so I keep having to take control from the pilot in a hurry and must have flipped it overboard because no matter how many times I looked in the cockpit or in the water (?) beside the boat, I couldn't find it. I hadn't sleep well in a couple days being on the boat in winds at night. I replaced it with a new Simrad

I did cover 50 miles though in a little over 7 hours that day though. It was on this day. This is with winds around 22 knots or so and building. These old boats seem to enjoy going downwind in this type stuff.......

I've since changed my lifelines to "rope." Dyneema/spectra/polyester something...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd3E5-KyiZ8

[chadc]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Break out the old autopilot and play around with it on a day with winds around 8-10 knots.

Look (tillermaster info). If you are an old electronics tech like me, you are set:

Tillermaster main

My boat came with an old Navico Tiller autopilot. It worked great until I lost it overboard. Yeah, I got used to not tightening the connector plug so I could unhook it at times and steer the boat with the main while reading. The tiller beep noise was getting on my nerves........

Some how on a day with winds between 24-30 for 4-5 hours or so I keep having to take control from the pilot in a hurry and must have flipped it overboard because no matter how many times I looked in the cockpit or in the water (?) beside the boat, I couldn't find it. I hadn't sleep well in a couple days being on the boat in winds at night. I replaced it with a new Simrad

I did cover 50 miles though in a little over 7 hours that day though. It was on this day. This is with winds around 22 knots or so and building. These old boats seem to enjoy going downwind in this type stuff.......

I've since changed my lifelines to "rope." Dyneema/spectra/polyester something...

Thanks for the link that will definitely come in handly.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by chadc

Thanks for the link that will definitely come in handly.

No problem. That guy did an awesome job with that writeup!

Looks like this is his webpage. There may be more good info there

http://www.electricmarine.com/

[GILow]

Originally Posted by chadc

New sails are definitely in the plan as soon as I can afford them.

Take no notice of Ann. I have figured out she's getting a commission for every set of sails sold in the world,


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[thomm225]

Tiller Master!!!!

You gotta love that name. I need a tee shirt with that on it.......!

[jamhass]

Originally Posted by patprice

..."heel buys you waterline, which in turn buys you hull speed. As noted, not a big deal on most boats today (hull speed goes as cube root of waterline),"....

I think that should read square root...

Signed

Smartass

damned auto type ....

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by chadc

I'm a newbie sailor having recently purchases a 79 Watkins 27 and hadn't tried out using full sails until this weekend, I had just been cruising a long using the genoa, so I was cruising along at 5 knots with around 8 degrees of heel with both the main and genoa up in about 8 knots of wind, according to the windy phone app, and then the wind picked up and as soon as it did the boat heeled over to 15 degrees and picked up speed to 6.5 knots so needless to say with me being inexperienced this kind of freaked me out so I pulled in the genoa and just kept the main up and cruised along at 3.5-4 knots. Afterwards I felt like I should have just kept going and that is exactly what should have happened when the wind picked up, so I'm wondering if there is a normal, sorta, degree of heel?

asking what is a normal angle of heel is not unlike asking how long is a rope. for each combination of wind and sea conditions, point of sail, sail trim, etc., there will be an angle of heel where the boat performs best. when steering i look at heel angle more than anything else. the horizon is right there in front of me over the bow and once i have the boat 'in her groove' i just freeze that picture using the helm. obviously nothing is forever and things will change so be ready to adjust but once the boat is back in the groove there is an optimum heel angle that makes it all work.

many aspects of sailing can best best be achieved by getting to a point where TLAR. TLAR cannot be taught. it can be learned by some and to some it just comes naturally and others never quite get it but at some point when i'm sailing, after each shift in wind, waves, trim, etc., i can look around and say to myself, 'THAT LOOKS ABOUT RIGHT'.

[s/v Beth]

Just went throught this whole thread and would comment on two tiny items.
First, the more you heel the more you slip sideways. My boat will sail at 30 degrees, but side slip really becomes apparent at about 20 degrees. This slip causes you to sail more into the wind to get the same destination. If you have a big tip downwind that is a whole different ball of wax, and is a big red flag for me to shorten sail immediately.
Second, though you usually trim for the average wind in a monohull, out in the big swells you want make sure you trim for the top of the swell, and that you are not too close to the wind at the top, or you may find your boat suddenly turning and heading down the swell sideways. IMHO this happens when you are too tipped at the bottom of the swell, or even surfing down the front.
Most good sailors do this automatically, but some have to think about it. Turning toward the stick (mast) seem to always be the natural thing for me to do in these conditions.

[rognvald]

I once met an Old Salt who was born with one leg shorter than the other. He said whenever he sailed, he never heeled less than 20 degrees. Good luck and good sailing.

[Polux]

It is a question of drag versus power. Most boats are designed to have less drag with no heel at all, some modern ones to have less drag with a slight heel...but you got always more power with heel, till the max RM.

If you look at a RM curve you are going to see that most boats got the Max Righting moment between 45º and 65º degrees of heel, but at that angle the drag is so big that you cannot take profitable use of that power.

As a basic rule narrower boats sail with more heel because a big part of the stability comes from the ballast and to have that going on you need heel. Beamier boats are designed to sail with a lot less heel because most of the RM comes from hull form stability at relatively small angles of heel (10/15º) but a racing, or sportive beamy sailboat can be designed to sail upwind with considerable heel to take advantage of its big ballast and huge draft.

So in a word, it depends and you have to find out what works best on your boat on different sea conditions and points of sail. The only constant is that when you heel you have more power and more drag. The right balance on any situation is a thing for you to discover

[BobLoucks]

That is the best answer yet TFAR , my good friend Mr H Hughes of Hughes boatworks always says more than 17 degrees is wasted on most monohulls

[SpiritofGlenans]

Chadc, a lot of people have given you some great advice about sail trim, reefing etc, and a whole lot of technical stuff about "wetted area", "hull speed", "leeway", which probably doesn't mean an awful lot to you, as they seem to have forgotten that you mentioned that you are afraid to sail with two sails at the same time.
My advice to you is that you should sign up for a beginner's course at a sailing school, sail your boat for a little while to practice what you learned, then go back and take the next level of instruction, because what you learn on a beginner's course is that there is a whole helluva lot more to learn.
A shorebased course on navigation etc (which could perhaps be done online) would also be beneficial. Doing all this will increase your enjoyment of your boat enormously and could perhaps save your life.