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Old 03-09-2015, 19:02   #46
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Breaking waves, whether far offshore, or at a river bar, are the ones that make any boat vulnerable or at risk.

In this video, watch the fishing boat as it comes in on some waves. But as you wait for the boat to make his move, look PAST or behind the boat to the horizon and see how the waves there stack up to heights. Impressive.
http://youtu.be/Lku2Nzsq710

http://youtu.be/Lku2Nzsq710

Video for Sailboat capsize river bar site:youtube.com▶ 3:57

Mar 15, 2009 - Uploaded by Sukoshy
A fishing boat capsizes entering Noyo Harbor, Fort Bragg CA in a storm. ... in the Albion bay ...
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Old 03-09-2015, 19:15   #47
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Crazy video steady, I don't know where you find this stuff. Those were breaking seas close, if not exceeding his length, never mind beam length. No keel and a pile of weight up high too (no doubt lots of fish in his belly for ballast). However, I noticed he didn't let himself get beam too the seas.

Skipper must have some seriously huevos grande.

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Old 03-09-2015, 19:50   #48
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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I was reading an interesting TSB report yesterday, where a 7 meter deep v RIB was station keeping in against an ebb tide and was actually capsized by a standing wave, that developed as the ebb increased. Supposedly the wave developed to port while the operator was looking at a point of land to starboard. Very odd, a tidal standing wave capsizing a deep V-Rib.

I know current driven waves can be bad, especially where wind is counter to the current, but the boat was stationary and was overwhelmed by a rapidly developing standing wave?

I haven't really figured out links yet, but if some one was curious to Google try "Marine investigation report M12W0070".

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I found it and read it. Very sad to read. Yes I'd say, judging from what is written, that the coxswain showed negligence in at least two instances and was unqualified to be doing training in those rapids. I was a commercial river guide for something over 25 years so I have seen a few upside down boats. Looks like he let the boat go in broadside, flipped it (once a boat like that is over 100 degrees or so it is not coming back) and then most importantly the coxswain apparently did not or could not dive under the boat to check for the missing crew himself once he saw only one pop up. Sadly they were tangled by their mesh vests in the rigging of the boat. And then he did not try to deploy the self-righting device right away but it didn't matter because they found out later it didn't work. IMO That boat, with its ability to snag its crew, and non functional righting device, should never have been in the rapids. And the photo of the rapids shows very steep drops into those holes, clearly waves that could capsize even a large heavy boat if you go in sideways, especially at 11 knots. I thought this quote is interesting ( a tug?): "Since 2003, there have been 3 instances of the JRCC being notified of overturned or capsized vessels in and near Sechelt Rapids. Two were overturned kayaks/jet boats, and one was a tug with 4 crew on board that was towing a barge." I would say those types of waves, where water is pouring over submerged ledges and rocks, are not too analogous to the discussion of wind-blown ocean waves on deep ballasted boats. But what a sad story, my heart goes out to the families of the 2 lost crew who were volunteers.
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Old 03-09-2015, 19:56   #49
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Crazy video steady, I don't know where you find this stuff. Those were breaking seas close, if not exceeding his length, never mind beam length. No keel and a pile of weight up high too (no doubt lots of fish in his belly for ballast). However, I noticed he didn't let himself get beam too the seas.

Skipper must have some seriously huevos grande.

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WOW, proof that it is better to be lucky than good!
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Old 03-09-2015, 20:03   #50
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Here is a video that some may find instructive: deep keel it looks like, pretty narrow beam... it may seem the keel hung rudder ( I am assuming) doesn't have too much effect on the boat's desire to pivot in these wave lengths...but is the boat in danger? No, I don't see that, I see a boat responding very nicely to the seas. But I do see a boat that is not gettting enough drive off the jib alone to have enough speed and effective rudder control. If it were me there I might put up MORE sail, or at least distribute the drive over both masts. Am I crazy? (Go ahead, say it, I can take it!)
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Old 03-09-2015, 20:30   #51
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Don, I think it is at least a little bit relevant to cruising?

I think the Sechelt islands are popular with cruisers, somebody like Pelagic might be able to correct me on that, but if tugs and barges are running it?

My brother has an Alberg 22 on the Ottawa that runs a nasty set of rapids a dozen or more times a year. He says its a very hairy ride every time.

I doubt the op was dealing with wind driven waves alone if he felt threatened by 3-5 ft seas in an Albin Vega, very likely, current was also a factor. I understand currents can be quite severe on the Baltic.

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Old 03-09-2015, 20:31   #52
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Don,

Thanks for posting the video of the old sailboat in the big seas.

It looks like a mess to me. I would not want to be on that particular boat as it was handling those waves. While it is floating, it seems at the mercy of those waves to me, and appears to be yawing around a lot. One bad wave at the wrong moment and I think it would suffer.
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Old 03-09-2015, 20:37   #53
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Don, I think it is at least a little bit relevant to cruising?

I think the Sechelt islands are popular with cruisers, somebody like Pelagic might be able to correct me on that, but if tugs and barges are running it?

My brother has an Alberg 22 on the Ottawa that runs a nasty set of rapids a dozen or more times a year. He says its a very hairy ride every time.

I doubt the op was dealing with wind driven waves alone if he felt threatened by 3-5 ft seas in an Albin Vega, very likely, current was also a factor. I understand currents can be quite severe on the Baltic.

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Point taken, I'll buy that! I have never run a rapid in my sailboat! (My friends will get a kick out of that idea.) But seriously I see your point. These places are transited during slackwater between tides (or are supposed to be) but folks in sailboats may find themselves there, or put themselves there (???) (Hope I am not insulting your brother!)
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Old 03-09-2015, 20:44   #54
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Don,

Thanks for posting the video of the old sailboat in the big seas.

It looks like a mess to me. I would not want to be on that particular boat as it was handling those waves. While it is floating, it seems at the mercy of those waves to me, and appears to be yawing around a lot. One bad wave at the wrong moment and I think it would suffer.
From my perspective of just watching that video, it looks like the skipper was perhaps killing time waiting for a tide change or a preferred ETA.
Alternately, most of his crew could have been 'mal de mer ' and he just wanted a simple headsail to deal with at the price of steering speed.
Hard to say from just a video, as you need to know the details.... but the boat could have handled those following seas much better with a bit more speed.
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Old 03-09-2015, 20:53   #55
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Don,

Thanks for posting the video of the old sailboat in the big seas.

It looks like a mess to me. I would not want to be on that particular boat as it was handling those waves. While it is floating, it seems at the mercy of those waves to me, and appears to be yawing around a lot. One bad wave at the wrong moment and I think it would suffer.
So watch the video a few times and I think you'll see that though the boat is pivoting, yawing, quite a bit, it is not rolling or really apparently stressed at all. I don't mean to dismiss the fact that it is in a situation where a big wave can break over it. But even if one does, the boat is of design, and is responding in a way I find entirely capable and reassuring, if that makes sense. A wave would certainly be hazardous for the crew, and sleeping below in these seas is probably tough, but I don't see (in this admittedly short clip) anything threatening the boat itself. HOWEVER I fully admit though I have not been in a boat this big in seas this big. So I hope someone who has will chime in!

edit: so a while back I was searching for "Stormy Weather" which was one of Olin Stephens' favorite boats and this video came up. At the time I thought it was just about sailing in stormy weather, but now that I watch it more closely it looks like that actually may be "Stormy Weather" in stormy weather! or at least a very similar boat. I'll post a shot of "Stormy Weather" so everyone can compare the hull to its responsiveness to these seas.

http://classicsailboats.org/sparkman...tormy-weather/
or its predecessor "Dorade":
http://classicsailboats.org/sparkman-stephens/

God those are beautiful boats.
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Old 03-09-2015, 21:08   #56
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Point taken, I'll buy that! I have never run a rapid in my sailboat! (My friends will get a kick out of that idea.) But seriously I see your point. These places are transited during slackwater between tides (or are supposed to be) but folks in sailboats may find themselves there, or put themselves there (???) (Hope I am not insulting your brother!)
My bro takes his adventuring pretty seriously. He's an excellent paddler. He knows how to work the eddies and ferries

He hits the main current at the last possible moment to work his way upstream (under power), but has actually run down stream in very serious current and standing waves under sail alone. With his wife, 2 children and standard poodle on board!

I've even run the eddies up to almost Sir Adam Beck Power Generating station, then peeled into the current on my Fantasia 35 on the Niagara River, which is very seriously big white river water. For crew I had my basset hound Brewster.

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Old 03-09-2015, 21:30   #57
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

OK, sorry, at the risk of being obnoxious, here is one more BEAUTIFUL old, narrow, deep long keel boat. Look how she sails, isn't that the best blend of sea-worthiness and speed, even today?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=qCTg4sOFLYQ
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Old 03-09-2015, 21:32   #58
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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My bro takes his adventuring pretty seriously. He's an excellent paddler. He knows how to work the eddies and ferries

He hits the main current at the last possible moment to work his way upstream (under power), but has actually run down stream in very serious current and standing waves under sail alone. With his wife, 2 children and standard poodle on board!

I've even run the eddies up to almost Sir Adam Beck Power Generating station, then peeled into the current on my Fantasia 35 on the Niagara River, which is very seriously big white river water. For crew I had my basset hound Brewster.

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WOW! Can I tag along some time? Sounds like a lot of fun!
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Old 03-09-2015, 21:42   #59
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

Okay, so I'm having fun with wave stuff, so hopefully I'm not annoying the op, but check this out.

The pic behind us shows about 30 feet of ridgerow (ice).

The water depth was about 30 ft, so this was ice piled up from the bottom of the lake to about 30' over the surface (so ice thickness about 60 ft). My point here is to illustrate just how big, bad and steep waves can be.

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Old 03-09-2015, 21:47   #60
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Re: Wavesize vs danger on a sailboat

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Okay, so I'm having fun with wave stuff, so hopefully I'm not annoying the op, but check this out.

The pic behind us shows about 30 feet of ridgerow (ice).

The water depth was about 30 ft, so this was ice piled up from the bottom of the lake to about 30' over the surface (so ice thickness about 60 ft). My point here is to illustrate just how big, bad and steep waves can be.

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Edit, I forgot, this was taken on the smallest great lake, sissy stuff.

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