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Old 26-09-2012, 12:14   #61
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

I am glad things worked out for Palarran but I've found the website he promotes is mainly for recreational sailing and for social meeting/hookups, companionship etc. Looking local for a skipper or crew is always good advice, but not always practical. Asking crew to purchase the outbound plane ticket is a big NO No and a deal killer from my perspective or what he calls "putting skin in the game". We do put our skin in the game simply by doing our jobs. If reference checks are not good, something may not be right, but some of my clients have moved and are not always accessible. I have photos and names of references/past clients posted on my web-site, am a homeowner, have a good credit report, am enrolled in a drug testing program and have been checked out in many ways already by possessing a USCG license as well as a TWI card. I would never fake a reference. As for paying him extra to do work on the delivery, it has pluses and minuses. If there is time on a delivery I always do cleaning and maintenance but don't ask for extra because when I am paid to do a delivery, I am being paid well enough to do as many things as possible to care for the boat which has been entrusted to me. I'm not going to steam clean a bilge for example, but I will do things such as splice lines on fenders, organize storage compartments, lubricate hinges, oil teak, shine metal, clean cockpit grating etc. etc. and maybe even do extra such as re-bedding cleats and stanchions-if there is time and conditions are right. However, I'd never get u/w without return airfare.
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Old 26-09-2012, 12:24   #62
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Paul, what is the address to your website? It will be interesting for me to look at it from an owners perspective.
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Old 26-09-2012, 13:10   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran
For an owner looking for a delivery crew, I stongly recommend findacrew.net. The site is well designed allowing you to spell out your situation, expectations, pay scale, etc. I received at least 150 responses to my posting...
Palarran,

It's nice to hear how the delivery went and how your relationship with the skipper ended up. As I remember the thread in which you looked for a skipper got a bit heated from comments by current and past skippers, my comments included. The results you describe in this post sound like a skippers dream. If I remember you paid less than many skippers desired rate but the tips and bonuses for work you mention in the post combined with a well found boat and effortless delivery more than make up for it. I am sure you and the skipper were delighted in you trans Atlantic delivery...

Cheers
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Old 26-09-2012, 13:55   #64
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Captain Jeffrys, About the British Yachtmasters license! When I was cruising in the Caribbean And hanging out with many skippers from all over the world It seemed like the Yachtmasters was the pinnacle of licenses to have. It does seem like it is highly respected everywhere. It was only on CF a few monthes ago that there was a thread that gave the requirments for both U.S. licenses and British, and I was surprised by how much less sea time the Brits had to log to get an Oceans endorsment. I am assuming the CF thread was accurate, so I dont want to start offending British skippers, but the requirments just didnt seem to match the reputation. About my comment on getting the insurance co to agree to a skipper. It wasnt about the insurance co wanting someone to go after. It was about hiring someone without the Oceans endorsment to do a transocean delivery, and then ( if something goes wrong) the insurance co could dodge coverage by saying you hired an unqualified person. Insurance co,s are good at collecting fees but look for ways to avoid paying claims. I am well aware that there is no license requirments to do deliveries and there are some very good delivery skippers that are not licensed, but from an owners position (and ex delivery skipper) I would want to make sure that I didnt give the insurance co any way to back out of paying if there is an accident. It is just my opinion, and maybe insurance co,s are getting kinder and more generous in this day and age FAT CHANCE.____Grant.
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Old 26-09-2012, 14:13   #65
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
So if I wanted to find a delivery skipper for Cairns - Darwin and Darwin - Bali where should I look?

I know it's a milk run, but at some stage it could be very nice to say "Put the boat in Darwin." or "Take the boat to Bali." Not getting any younger.

And what sort of condition would yous want the boat to be in, what sort of gear on board and how much time is needed?
You could contact my old man who does deliveries. He just finished one from Mooloolaba to Darwin. Normally he is loosely based out of Brisbane or Bundaberg. He has done two RTWs on his own boats apart from the deliveries. His email is wallabycreek AT yahoo DOT com. Or ring him (Alan Phillips) on 0429 620 430. He lurks around here very occasionally as Wallabycreek.

If this is inappropriate, Moderator - sorry, just delete it!
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Old 26-09-2012, 15:38   #66
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Others will know better, but I beleive that historically (up to the 1970's?) the UK (RYA) Yachtmaster qualification (with a commercial endorsement?) was more stringent. But it got modernised (commercialised? ) to take into account that those seeking it were likely on the recreational style boat end of things and not sailing square riggers ........I am not saying that it doesn't mean anything (nor even that it is better or worse than in the "good old days" - I have no idea!), just throwing in my (vague) understanding of the history, which may explain the comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
the insurance co could dodge coverage by saying you hired an unqualified person. Insurance co,s are good at collecting fees but look for ways to avoid paying claims. I am well aware that there is no license requirments to do deliveries and there are some very good delivery skippers that are not licensed, but from an owners position (and ex delivery skipper) I would want to make sure that I didnt give the insurance co any way to back out of paying if there is an accident. It is just my opinion, and maybe insurance co,s are getting kinder and more generous in this day and age FAT CHANCE.____Grant.
My understanding is that whilst the Insurance Companies may try and wiggle out of anything - but to succeed they need a reason. Simply a sudden change of heart (by them) on the qualifications (paper and / or prior experiance) would not be good enough - would need the Skipper to have actually done something wrong (and on that they would probably be held to a higher standard than a non-proffessional Owner / Skipper).
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Old 26-09-2012, 16:11   #67
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Others will know better, but I beleive that historically (up to the 1970's?) the UK (RYA) Yachtmaster qualification (with a commercial endorsement?) was more stringent. But it got modernised (commercialised? ) to take into account that those seeking it were likely on the recreational style boat end of things and not sailing square riggers ........I am not saying that it doesn't mean anything (nor even that it is better or worse than in the "good old days" - I have no idea!), just throwing in my (vague) understanding of the history, which may explain the comments.



My understanding is that whilst the Insurance Companies may try and wiggle out of anything - but to succeed they need a reason. Simply a sudden change of heart (by them) on the qualifications (paper and / or prior experiance) would not be good enough - would need the Skipper to have actually done something wrong (and on that they would probably be held to a higher standard than a non-proffessional Owner / Skipper).
You may be right, DOJ. I got my yachtmaster's whilst serving in the RN. I well remember being failed in my first attempt at Day skipper. The Petty Officer who was instructing/examining me said: "Sorry Sir (I was a Lieutenant at the time), come back in a year's time with a few more miles under your belt." Although disappointed, I re-took the course later and to my great joy, got the same guy who wrote in my log-book "Passed - This Time!".

His attitude, which I absolutely agree with, was that one's first skipper's ticket (ie Day Skipper under the RYA scheme) was "007" - A Licence to Kill. To expand with a scenario: Over-confident new skipper goes out for just a day-sail with wife and kiddies....weather kicks up, he can't handle it, fails to reef in time, hasn't briefed his kids, one of them falls overboard....instant brain-freeze....panic...dead child to recover instead of a MOB dummy....

All other tickets going up the ladder were relatively easy, given more miles under the belt. There's absolutely nothing to beat "Time In". Tony (and
I learn something new, every trip!)
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Old 26-09-2012, 17:51   #68
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

DOJ, Maybe I was not clear about insurance. What I ment was in the situation where the insurance company had not approved of a skipper , or maybe didnt even know about a delivery and something went wrong, they would jump on the fact that the skipper didnt have the correct license(therefore unqualified) to take the trip. We know that there is no law saying you have to be licensed, but an insurance company lawyer would try to use that to get out of responsability. I tend to hold a dim view of insurance companies , since the one time I had a claim for damage that was caused by their surveyor that they sent to inspect my boat, I had to get a lawyer to fight for me. After weeks of argueing over the phone by myself, I hired a lawyer and the insurance company paid up right away. They were going to stiff me._______Grant.
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Old 26-09-2012, 18:01   #69
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
DOJ, Maybe I was not clear about insurance. What I ment was in the situation where the insurance company had not approved of a skipper , or maybe didnt even know about a delivery and something went wrong, they would jump on the fact that the skipper didnt have the correct license(therefore unqualified) to take the trip. We know that there is no law saying you have to be licensed, but an insurance company lawyer would try to use that to get out of responsability. I tend to hold a dim view of insurance companies , since the one time I had a claim for damage that was caused by their surveyor that they sent to inspect my boat, I had to get a lawyer to fight for me. After weeks of argueing over the phone by myself, I hired a lawyer and the insurance company paid up right away. They were going to stiff me._______Grant.
I'm not a huge fan of insurance companies for sure, and yes, they definitely do not like paying out.

A tactic I have used a couple times in the past is look up some case law (I am not a lawyer), and whilst adjuster and I are in discussions, advising them of the applicable case law, and ask them if they would prefer to have a new and higher precedence set or would they prefer to settle.

Both times a settlement was arrived at with in days after me having to have that conversation. They don't like litigation, and they really don't like new case law being thrust upon them, as it restricts them going forward.

YMMV.
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Old 27-09-2012, 03:22   #70
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
DOJ, Maybe I was not clear about insurance. What I ment was in the situation where the insurance company had not approved of a skipper , or maybe didnt even know about a delivery and something went wrong, they would jump on the fact that the skipper didnt have the correct license(therefore unqualified) to take the trip. We know that there is no law saying you have to be licensed, but an insurance company lawyer would try to use that to get out of responsability.
Everything is arguable when something goes wrong / money is involved - no matter what paper qualifications / experiance the Skipper has.....or the merit of the argument! If the Skipper does something stupid (like going to sleep when crossing the English Channel on Autopilot? ) then ain't going help that he has enough paper qualifications to Captain the USS Enterprise and has rounded cape horn a squillion times.

Easy answer is to notify insurance company in advance (my guess is that a professional would insist on this, for own risk management purposes as well as for the owner).

Second (for an Owner) is to ensure that the "professional" has adequate PII cover (and the professional Skipper probably wants to make sure he has decent legal expenses cover - folks, including insurance companies don't like to argue when the other side has "free" lawyers).

Oh, and just to make clear - I am NOT a lawyer. Just a fair bit of (professional - i.e. using other people's money!) experiance dealing with argumentative tw#ts. The "trick" is pre-emption......get yer ducks in a row before problems arise, and appear like you mean business, are not going away - and have a big enough stick.
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Old 28-09-2012, 00:35   #71
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

After I had crewed on deliveries and done a number as my own company I decided to get liability insurance for deliveries. I ended up with Loyds of London for about 800$ a year for 1 mil in coverage. The next year(without any claims) it went up by 50 percent. The following year(without any claims) it went up another 50 percent. At that point I gave up on insurance. What has been the experiance of other skippers out there?_____Grant.
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Old 28-09-2012, 21:38   #72
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis View Post
I am glad things worked out for Palarran but I've found the website he promotes is mainly for recreational sailing and for social meeting/hookups, companionship etc. Looking local for a skipper or crew is always good advice, but not always practical. Asking crew to purchase the outbound plane ticket is a big NO No and a deal killer from my perspective or what he calls "putting skin in the game". We do put our skin in the game simply by doing our jobs. If reference checks are not good, something may not be right, but some of my clients have moved and are not always accessible. I have photos and names of references/past clients posted on my web-site, am a homeowner, have a good credit report, am enrolled in a drug testing program and have been checked out in many ways already by possessing a USCG license as well as a TWI card. I would never fake a reference. As for paying him extra to do work on the delivery, it has pluses and minuses. If there is time on a delivery I always do cleaning and maintenance but don't ask for extra because when I am paid to do a delivery, I am being paid well enough to do as many things as possible to care for the boat which has been entrusted to me. I'm not going to steam clean a bilge for example, but I will do things such as splice lines on fenders, organize storage compartments, lubricate hinges, oil teak, shine metal, clean cockpit grating etc. etc. and maybe even do extra such as re-bedding cleats and stanchions-if there is time and conditions are right. However, I'd never get u/w without return airfare.
Paul, Findacrew does have that social element in it but (IMO) for an owner, it is an excellent site and delivers great results for a small fee. I also don't think it is geared for recreational sailing at all. Maybe you are confusing the site or haven't become a premium member to see the additional information posted.

I did look at your web site and it is done very nicely. I guess the question is what is considered a "delivery". Hiring someone to move your boat 500 miles doesn't seem that far or complicated. I'm thinking "delivery skippers" go at least 800 miles or 6 days non-stop. Otherwise they are just skippers making a short run on someone elses boat for a buck.

In regards to insurance, I didn't need any special permission from my carrier for the delivery captain. The only thing they kind of asked is if we would have 3 people aboard and if I was one of them. It would be nice to hear from other owners on what their carriers requested. Technically I can allow anyone to captain my boat within certain distances from shore without any specific approval from them.

Foolish Sailor. That thread did degenerate quite badly, especially since I posted specifically what I was looking for and wanted nothing more. I guess that's not the way around here. Again I was fortunate. I've attached a letter of recommendation I gave him. I don't know if it will be readable.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Dave Sharpe Reference.pdf (101.6 KB, 54 views)
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Old 28-09-2012, 22:57   #73
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Re: Owners perspective

Tony-Completely concur with all you have written.
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Old 28-09-2012, 23:25   #74
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

Sorry for the delay, was on a short delivery. I have heard the same re: YM. Will have to check that out further. Every time I have delivered a boat here in SoCal for any length, I have been asked for my license(both sides), TWIC card, Sailing c/v and list of references. Different areas I guess with SoCal being a litigious one at that!
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Old 28-09-2012, 23:41   #75
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Re: Using a Delivery Skipper / Crew - Tips & Advice (and Horror Stories!)

David- First, you are a delivery skipper's dream owner. Your letter was amazing and I'm sure Dave is quite stoked to get such a letter!
Lots of West Coast delivery work is less than 500 nm. Also, lots of skippers pumped out each year, 12-18 a year, right here in my home port of Marina Del Rey. How some of them got a tonnage license is a mystery. Thankfully I'm pretty busy mainly with lots of word of mouth. Sadly, many Captains in these parts are not what I call competent sailors in anything close to what I call crisis sailing. Winds/seas are moderate in SoCal and lots of 4 hour days over 35GRT was on fishing boats or buddies boats...Big dent in long distant deliveries due to Dock Wise or simlar.
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