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Old 15-12-2011, 15:57   #16
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A poled out gennaker



Found it in the folder with the reaching shot.
Ditto! This was early in the morning, first sail up, very light air.


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Old 15-12-2011, 16:15   #17
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Ditto! This was early in the morning, first sail up, very light air.


.
I have the pole on the clew so the sail is wing-on-wing, while I think you have your's on the tack.
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Old 15-12-2011, 16:25   #18
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I have the pole on the clew so the sail is wing-on-wing, while I think you have your's on the tack.
Do you see the red stripe?

Both my tack and clew are the same length from the head.
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Old 15-12-2011, 16:26   #19
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Originally Posted by bazzer View Post
Not liking this idea as it could lead to a very nasty broach IMHO.

If a short handed cruiser you pick your wind conditions
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Old 15-12-2011, 16:39   #20
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Do you see the red stripe?

Both my tack and clew are the same length from the head.
OK - that is a symmetrical spinnaker you are flying. Gennakers often have color codes luff and leech. I show the strip when I enlarged the photo.
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Old 15-12-2011, 17:43   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale

Absolutley agree.

I will not fly a spinnaker or gennaker without the main. If the wind starts to pick up quickly you will want to be able to blanket the spinnaker / gennaker with the main so that you can get it down.

I also find that broad reaching and gybing is faster than DDW. More relaxing as well by minimizing the possibility of an accidental gybe.
Everey boat and rig is different. but...

Having tried many different ways to get better vmg we find that with the asym it ultimately is best to sail the angles and gybe.

If we really have to get deeper we have to run the symetrical spinnaker.

We have a 150 genny. In our white sails races (no spin) we've poled the genny, gone wing on wing and sailed the angles. Sheeted the main, not sheeted the main, sailed by the lee. In the end sailing the angles is the "right" call for the genny and the asym on our boat.

If we have to go deep, i.e. unfavorable currents, insufficient room or some other barrier, we rig the symetrical.

Sailng wing on wing is actually the worst. Your sailing angles are very small so you have to actively helm, wind shifts mean you are not sailing in the direction you want to sail because you have to follow the narrow angle you made for yourself and you generally aren't sailing fast.

For cruising it is not relaxing at all.
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Old 15-12-2011, 18:42   #22
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Everey boat and rig is different. but...

Having tried many different ways to get better vmg we find that with the asym it ultimately is best to sail the angles and gybe.

If we really have to get deeper we have to run the symetrical spinnaker.

We have a 150 genny. In our white sails races (no spin) we've poled the genny, gone wing on wing and sailed the angles. Sheeted the main, not sheeted the main, sailed by the lee. In the end sailing the angles is the "right" call for the genny and the asym on our boat.

If we have to go deep, i.e. unfavorable currents, insufficient room or some other barrier, we rig the symetrical.

Sailng wing on wing is actually the worst. Your sailing angles are very small so you have to actively helm, wind shifts mean you are not sailing in the direction you want to sail because you have to follow the narrow angle you made for yourself and you generally aren't sailing fast.

For cruising it is not relaxing at all.
I am intending to do a fairly long cruise before long, San Francisco to Cabo, not racing, so I need to figure out if my VMG is better running downwind or broad reaching. Not sure how to go about that, but as a ex cat sailer I just broad reached downwind, 'cause everyone else did and I even won one or two races. I hate the thought of broad reaching for a hundred miles and then getting a wind shift that makes it all a waste of time!
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Old 15-12-2011, 19:22   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazzer
I am intending to do a fairly long cruise before long, San Francisco to Cabo, not racing, so I need to figure out if my VMG is better running downwind or broad reaching. Not sure how to go about that, but as a ex cat sailer I just broad reached downwind, 'cause everyone else did and I even won one or two races. I hate the thought of broad reaching for a hundred miles and then getting a wind shift that makes it all a waste of time!
For me, the allure of the asym for running is less complexity - pole up, pole down, guy can be eliminated when tacked to a sprit or deck point. This is attractive for short handed sailors, and to lazy ones like me. But really the asym is a "reaching" sail to me.

So, on a long passage - 5 days deep downwind - rigging the symetrical chute makes sense. But I am overly cautious and would be on alert for building conditions. I would be chicken to leave a symetrical spinnaker up at night without a proper and reliable night watch.

The Volvo 60 guys came to Singapore and we watched the inshore races. Those guys are pretty freakin' fast sailing the angles with their giant asyms. But at sea they have pretty awesome weather information too...

As far as figuring it out for your boat - you could set a mark with your gps and experiment with different sail and angle set ups along the way. I don't think it would be critical to know ahead of the trip unless you are deciding whether to carry the pole and symetrical along on the trip.

If I had both (and I do) I would take both. But my gear is small - tiny in fact and the symetrical spinnaker stores easily in a salon locker.
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Old 15-12-2011, 19:28   #24
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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In the second picture, the tack has been eased to depower it in sub-10 knot air.
The idea is right but the picture isn't. When DDW you ease the tack and the sheet, allowing the luff to float to windward of centerline.

About the dousing bag: if you use one with a fiberglass / plastic collar and spray it with McLube it's a piece of cake to snuff the chute, even in a strong breeze.
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:30   #25
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Not liking this idea as it could lead to a very nasty broach IMHO.
Not in six knots apparent and three-inch seas, it couldn't. Also, my hand was actively playing the tack line, which was not exactly being tugged out of my grasp.

I've been on boats during spinnaker broaches. It's made me leery of them on my own, and so far, it's never happened.

I do, however, acknowledge your concerns. This is the sort of thing that must be experimented with. My main is IOR-style: tall and skinny. It arguably allows me to do things with my sloop I would not do with my larger cutter, which has considerably more main and generally a more powerful sail plan.

The best way to learn is to try it out at the lower end of the "effective" range. You get a sense of when you are overdoing things or should consider avoiding certain tactics.
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Old 16-12-2011, 08:36   #26
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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The idea is right but the picture isn't. When DDW you ease the tack and the sheet, allowing the luff to float to windward of centerline.

About the dousing bag: if you use one with a fiberglass / plastic collar and spray it with McLube it's a piece of cake to snuff the chute, even in a strong breeze.
I realized the picture wasn't representative after I recalled the day (about two summers ago with a weak easterly in Lake Ontario). But unfortunately my camera wasn't in clairvoyant mode that day.

I've never had a issue with the snuffer save that the "sausage string" blew off to leeward one day and I had to have my wife go very broad just to bring it inboard. But if it ever gets rough, I'll use the McLube.
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Old 16-12-2011, 09:17   #27
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Wink Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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Not in six knots apparent and three-inch seas, it couldn't. Also, my hand was actively playing the tack line, which was not exactly being tugged out of my grasp.

I've been on boats during spinnaker broaches. It's made me leery of them on my own, and so far, it's never happened.

I do, however, acknowledge your concerns. This is the sort of thing that must be experimented with. My main is IOR-style: tall and skinny. It arguably allows me to do things with my sloop I would not do with my larger cutter, which has considerably more main and generally a more powerful sail plan.

The best way to learn is to try it out at the lower end of the "effective" range. You get a sense of when you are overdoing things or should consider avoiding certain tactics.
AH HA, your talking about "ghosting" I might well raise a top mast in those conditions and rig some kind of Royal....
But seriously, a broach on a cruising boat is not fun at all.
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Old 16-12-2011, 09:20   #28
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

Oh, my problem is compounded by a crew is a little disabled but eager to help and a heavy cutter rig. But I do have a ATN sock which is easy to use
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Old 16-12-2011, 09:24   #29
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Re: Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

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A
But seriously, a broach on a cruising boat is not fun at all.
Not much fun on a racing boat, either.
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Old 16-12-2011, 10:36   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazzer
I am intending to do a fairly long cruise before long, San Francisco to Cabo, not racing, so I need to figure out if my VMG is better running downwind or broad reaching. Not sure how to go about that, but as a ex cat sailer I just broad reached downwind, 'cause everyone else did and I even won one or two races. I hate the thought of broad reaching for a hundred miles and then getting a wind shift that makes it all a waste of time!
You're going to have days to experiment with the GPS to maximize vmg. Why try to figure it out now?

If you gybe at each watch change, you won't get too far from your optimum route and won't get hurt by a shift. Forecast will give you large shifts to prepare for if you want to get all tactical
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