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Old 27-04-2012, 17:53   #61
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

One item that hasn't surfaced in this discussion is whether the Coast Guard can lawfully ban a yacht race in the first place. Yacht racing is a lawful activity. By virtue of being a lawful activity, permission is not needed unless the one who applies for permission agrees to be bound by constraints/restrictions set by the body issuing the permit.

The Coast Guard didn't ban racing; they stopped issuing race permits. Banning and issuing permits are two completely different considerations. If I choose to issue permits to allow people to walk on the sidewalk past my house; and people agreed to apply for such a permit and agreed to be bound by restrictions I set, it is simply an agreement between the walker(s) and myself. However, I can't lawfully prevent people from walking past my house.

If this issue conveyed to the Coast Guard's Office of General Counsel (I'm certain they have one.) and a legal position (opinion) is sought, they will more than hesitate to go on record and maintain the Coast Guard has authority to ban (yacht racing) a lawful act.
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Old 27-04-2012, 19:25   #62
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The land of the free ehh, and you need " permits" to race. I ll take me socialist Europe anyday, no one would dream of trying that here. How can a "rescue " agency issue race permits what's the legislative basis.

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In a busy harbor the Coast Guard Captain of the harbor needs to know what is going on. Large marine events and even smaller stuff like competitive swims can and do affect commercial traffic, and therefore safety.

Neither can commercial traffic go through most busy harbors in the US without checking in with VTS, for safety's sake.

The USCG Captain of the harbor is responsible for its safe operation.

It's a public safety issue, for the same reason we have air traffic controllers and stop lights at intersections. Chaos is less safe.
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Old 27-04-2012, 19:42   #63
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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Originally Posted by Astral Blue View Post
One item that hasn't surfaced in this discussion is whether the Coast Guard can lawfully ban a yacht race in the first place. Yacht racing is a lawful activity. By virtue of being a lawful activity, permission is not needed unless the one who applies for permission agrees to be bound by constraints/restrictions set by the body issuing the permit.

The Coast Guard didn't ban racing; they stopped issuing race permits. Banning and issuing permits are two completely different considerations. If I choose to issue permits to allow people to walk on the sidewalk past my house; and people agreed to apply for such a permit and agreed to be bound by restrictions I set, it is simply an agreement between the walker(s) and myself. However, I can't lawfully prevent people from walking past my house.
.
The Supreme Court has been very clear regarding the authority of law enforcement agencies to regulate organised gatherings. Requiring a permit for a yacht race is no different than requiring a permit for a parade, or giving a speech in a park. If two yachtees wish to get together and legally race their boats, then nobody will bother them. If a group desires to promote an organised gathering, then they need permits so that the authorities can get all their ducks in a row just like Indy cars do when they wish to race on the streets of Long Beach.
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Old 27-04-2012, 20:11   #64
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Just a quick update.

"April 28, 2012

Applauding the actions of the US Coast Guard a spoksperson for the US Senate said, "The US Senate applauds the actions of the Coast Guard in suspending all ocean racing. The US Government's main role is to make sure our citizens come to no harm so that they can continue earning and sending their money to the government where it may be used for their own good and protection.

However, it is clear after failure after failure of this Obama government to keep every citizen alive is clearly a shortfall of this failed government. That is why with immediate effect your nanny, er, caretaker, government will introduce broad sweeping legislation banning dying without a permit.

In order to administer this program every citizen will be issued a health and happiness card guaranteeing the right to health and happiness that our forefathers intended, even if they didn't say it in the Bill of Rights (we know what they meant) - this fee based program will be self funded through the card issuance fees and annual happiness assessments. The happier you are the more we will assess you so that we all end up with the same level of happiness. Those actually wishing to die will simply sign all their assets over to the governmnent who will decide the merits of the case and if approved assign a date time, place and activity for death to occur.

Of course those making $2m a year or more are exempt from the program as are all elected members of the federal government."

The Obama government "was not immediately available for comment (as usual)...
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Old 27-04-2012, 21:05   #65
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Near impossible to pull an off road racing or rally permit with the Feds since the Lucerne Valley incident.
Guess the Govt knows best how to keep us from being ourselves.
Shame really.
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Old 27-04-2012, 22:48   #66
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Ex-Calif,
The really scary part of your post is that some people will believe it and start a chain mail with the added instruction to pass it on to ten of your friends.
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Old 28-04-2012, 02:58   #67
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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In a busy harbor the Coast Guard Captain of the harbor needs to know what is going on. Large marine events and even smaller stuff like competitive swims can and do affect commercial traffic, and therefore safety.
I appreciate that in a high traffic area with large commercial vessels that is important not to impede others - but it's not as if folk in a race have any special rights of way .

If folks don't obey the Colregs (and the local by-laws - personally I have no problem in these circumstances with commercial shipping having complete right of way over leisure craft, and if they run someone down because of that / someone took a risk - then so be it) then the legal tools are already in place for the State to take action against offenders (not just after they cause a serious problem). Simply giving someone a permit doesn't automatically mean they won't be a numpty.....oh, if life was that simple!

Whilst I can see the benefit in some organisation (even in the shape of a Permit ) to at least stagger events during the year (for benefit of particpants as much as for everyone else), fundamentaly I see no problem if the waterway is very crowded. It's not as if folks could not all go out on their boats at the same time - NOT racing.

IMO it's a classic being seen to be "doing something", with the bonus of extending the remit of the organisation - whether to justify more resources (cash and personnel) or simply to defend what they already have.

Personally I would favour a French style approach of manning the baricades (yeah, they still do that - including their Fishermen blockading ports). Don't hold a "race" - just get everyone out on the water to make a point. "Occupy the Ocean"....you heard it here first .
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Old 28-04-2012, 07:34   #68
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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I appreciate that in a high traffic area with large commercial vessels that is important not to impede others - but it's not as if folk in a race have any special rights of way .
Absolutely correct. Moreover, virtually all the Race Instuctions for the San Francisco Bay area that I have seen since the late 60's in some manner or another provide that a yacht that interferes with ship traffic--or, in fact, comes close enough to ship traffic to give an appearance of interference--will be DSQ'd. And they are...
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Old 28-04-2012, 09:59   #69
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission...

I hate micromanagement especially from a bunch of hypocritics. Oh it is not safe, though we have machine guns attached to the front of our boat and mark up your boats with our big asskicking black soled boots...

But do not worry, we are from the government and we are hear to help you... not think.
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Old 28-04-2012, 10:07   #70
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission...

I hate micromanagement especially from a bunch of hypocritics. Oh it is not safe, though we have machine guns attached to the front of our boat and mark up your boats with our big asskicking black soled boots...

But do not worry, we are from the government and we are hear to help you... not think.
Sounds like I'm not the only one to be scrubbing black shoe marks off the deck after a USCG "safety" boarding. Be sure to check all your spices, they are known for not screwing on till seated, the lids they removed.

Got to have safe spice, you know?
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Old 28-04-2012, 11:06   #71
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Absolutely correct. Moreover, virtually all the Race Instuctions for the San Francisco Bay area that I have seen since the late 60's in some manner or another provide that a yacht that interferes with ship traffic--or, in fact, comes close enough to ship traffic to give an appearance of interference--will be DSQ'd. And they are...
Perhaps someone should send her copies of the race instructions? and maybe highlight the important stuff . And maybe add a PS of "don't hit anything made of rock".

Looks like Captain Cindy Stowe could do with a cheering up......maybe we should send Boatman on a special mission .

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Old 28-04-2012, 13:02   #72
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

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Perhaps someone should send her copies of the race instructions? and maybe highlight the important stuff . And maybe add a PS of "don't hit anything made of rock".

Looks like Captain Cindy Stowe could do with a cheering up......maybe we should send Boatman on a special mission .

We ought to send atoll.
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Old 28-04-2012, 16:58   #73
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Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

I hear Atoll and Boatman are pretty busy so DOJs the man to go.
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