Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-04-2012, 08:33   #31
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,428
Images: 25
Re: USCG suspends premits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
The Coast Guard "nanny" has to use their personnel and equipment to search for people, rescue people and to pick up bodies.?
1. Pardon me old son, it isn't "their personnel and equipment", it's ours. We (the public) pay for them/it. They use our money at each and every turn. They work for us (remember that old "of the people, for the people, by the people" thing?).


Quote:
Given that, doesn't anyone think they should have some say in the matter?
2. The Coast Guard does have the power/authority to prevent a sailing by a declaration of a "Manifestly Unsafe Voyage" although that authority was confered in relation to passenger ships to prevent forseeable harm to unwitting passengers. It would be difficult, at best, to extend that authority to an entire fleet of yachts with willing participants.

Quote:
If you think it is wrong to have to abide by their decisions then wouldn't it be hypocritical to ask for a rescue if you ever needed one?
3. Ah... No. See #1, above. Moreover, if recreational sailing were entirely banned, the CG's ships would still sail, aircraft would still fly, and personnel would still train. In fact, operational hours wouldn't change by much at all. As a practical matter, an operational deployment is as good, or better, in fact, than training exercises for maintianing operational readiness. The absolute last thing anyone needs is some bloated bureaucrat deciding what one can/should do. You could end up with rules like, say, not allowing a toy in a Kid's Happy Meal because the kid might insist his/her Mommy take him/her to McDonalds and its just too hard for Mommy to say no; or banning soda because its too irresitable to fatties; or,...Oop's, forgot, San Francisco's already done all that...


Quote:
BTW, I am as much against big government intrusion into my life as anyone. It's just inconsistent to ask government to stay stay out of your life except for when you need it to rescue you. If you want to be consistent here then pay a private business to come rescue you if and when you need it.

You can't have it both ways and not be hypocritical.
4. JEEZE--the heat's been turned up on the boiler kettle and (some of) the Frogs are quite happy to simply keep doing the backstroke. Evidently particularly so in (the Peoples' Republic of) California.

Again, from Civics 101, "..of the People, by the People, for the People." (Not of the People, by the Appointed, for the Annointed.) The Motto is "...to Protect and Serve", not "...Direct and Deserve."

Further, you need to do a little reading on the history of the Coast Guard which is a composit of the (historical) Revenue Service and Life-Saving Service, to understand its/their intended mission.

Quote:
Additionally, perhaps more racers need to start putting safety before winning?
5. Ah, spoken like a true 1979 Plymouth dock-side commentator (you know--Fastnet--right?).

As a class, with few exceptions those who race are more safety conscious than any other group of sailors as racing is inherently dangerous--whether sailing around a rock or a bouy. Equipment and crew are worked hard and efforts are rarely curtailed when the weather gets a little snotty. As a consequence, most racers are also better cruisers when they do finally hang up their racing flags. (And on the matter of safety--and originally having come from San Francisco, and sailing/racing for too many years--many, many more have died from injuries/MOB incidents day sailing and "safe" bouy racing in the Bay than in ocean races.)

Lastly, as to the Coast Guard's supposed Dictum, I don't know who that young woman believes corronated her, but the Coast Guard doesn't have the legal authority to "ban" racing and unless thats a unique local aspect of (the Peoples Republic) of California, can't "Permit" (or deny) anything unless, and only unless, an activity will impead routine ship traffic (and I have yet to see an every day sailboat capable of impeading a ship, unless in the manner of a speed bump). At best that declaration is a (bad) "Public Relations" stunt to prove that Government is "doing something".

It's time to get "Government" back to serving the People, not the People the Government in the US.

FWIW...
__________________

__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 08:45   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

And this is why government issues permits/licenses, to control activities. At this rate we'll need a license just to operate a boat of any kind, just like airplanes. It only takes enough crashes.
__________________

__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:07   #33
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

The reason for the permit system is that the approach through the Golden Gate is controlled by a vessel traffic system. Dozens of ships--mostly containerized freighters and oil tankers, but cruise ships, ROROs, and a fair number of bulk cargo freighters as well--steam through the gate daily, using restricted traffic lanes. Add to that mix numerous ferries and booze cruises, fishing boats, tourist boats, tugs pulling barges and, on the weekends, a few hundred recreational boats. Now imagine races taking place, sometimes with several hundred entries. Vessel Traffic Services approached local yacht clubs and the Yacht Racing Association years ago about developing the permit system so that they could know ahead of time when traffic advisories were necessary to keep from routing shipping traffic through a busy start line.

If you look at the racing calendar for SF Bay, there are often more than a dozen races per week, including the winter months. If you only see one race listed on the weekend, this will be because it's a huge race, like the Big Boat Series or the Three Bridge Fiasco, which if I recall correctly had something like 380 entries this year. The racing calendar also accommodates such large-scale events as Fleet Week and Opening Day.

The permit system isn't about the government trying to play nanny. It's about trying to prevent chaos in one of the busiest waterways in the world. It has evolved as a cooperative effort between the government and the private sector, in this case the USCG, VTS, YRA, other racing organizations such as the Singlehanded Sailing Society, the Bay Area Multihull Association, the Offshore Yacht Racing Association, the America's Cup, and some 50 private yacht clubs.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:13   #34
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Check this link Sunday around noon, right when the Opening Day Parade is setting up. And then realize there will also be 400-500 boats out there not running AIS transponders.

Recent Ship Positions on San Francisco Bay
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:14   #35
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
The permit system isn't about the government trying to play nanny. It's about trying to prevent chaos in one of the busiest waterways in the world. It has evolved as a cooperative effort between the government and the private sector, in this case the USCG, VTS, YRA, other racing organizations such as the Singlehanded Sailing Society, the Bay Area Multihull Association, the Offshore Yacht Racing Association, the America's Cup, and some 50 private yacht clubs.
So I guess that is why they suspended permits. You know since a ship going aground on an island 10s of miles away from the bay caused huge traffic jams.
__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:22   #36
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,428
Images: 25
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
...

The permit system isn't about the government trying to play nanny. It's about trying to prevent chaos in one of the busiest waterways in the world.

Your comments are well founded and sensible and I am well acquainted with them (we are still members of the Richmond Yacht Club) However, the announced "ban" has/had nothing to do with any of your points. It was/is related to an assessment of the "safety" (in the young woman's opinion) of the activity itself, which is not her call/perview.

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:24   #37
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
So I guess that is why they suspended permits. You know since a ship going aground on an island 10s of miles away from the bay caused huge traffic jams.
I don't like the offshore permits being suspended any more than anyone. Unlike most of the armchair skippers on this forum, I've raced the Duxship and the Farallones races. Tons of fun. But the fact of the matter is that the coast guard invested thousands of man-hours two weekends ago, and even then they were not able to recover the majority of the bodies of sailors who lost their lives.

Maybe they earned the right to ask for a brief time out so that we can figure out how to reduce the carnage?
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:25   #38
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Thanks for saying that nicer than I did HyLyte. Sometimes I get carried away by my sarcasm.
__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:28   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Underway in the Med -
Boat: Jeanneau 40 DS SoulMates
Posts: 1,904
Images: 1
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

one of the beauties of cruising outside the USA is NOT having to deal with the coast guard -- outside of the helicopter service what do they really do - OH yea - sorry we saw them in cartagena colombia (wonder if they paid the going rate as the ss did not) off bahamas, cruising past cuba to keep americans out and foreign boats that left the usa from going to cuba (ask our south african friends)
you can save a lot of $$$ by outsourcing the entire coast guard - except for the helicopter service (and maybe that too)

they are simply, like many gov't agencies, grashing for more and more power at the expense of the individual citizen - and capt cindy obviously wants to be top dog in sf area

just my thoughts
chuck patty and svsoulmates
__________________
chuckr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:30   #40
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
It was/is related to an assessment of the "safety" (in the young woman's opinion) of the activity itself, which is not her call/perview.

FWIW...
You might want to edit this post? Sounds awfully sexist. For what it's worth, the decision to suspend the permits until later in May was made by the United States Coast Guard.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:32   #41
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash

I don't like the offshore permits being suspended any more than anyone. Unlike most of the armchair skippers on this forum, I've raced the Duxship and the Farallones races. Tons of fun. But the fact of the matter is that the coast guard invested thousands of man-hours two weekends ago, and even then they were not able to recover the majority of the bodies of sailors who lost their lives.

Maybe they earned the right to ask for a brief time out so that we can figure out how to reduce the carnage?
Normally I find you the voice of reason Bash, however in the historical context of lives lost and not, in racing, this "decision" by the USCG is rash. At best they should have cancelled races around the farallones ONLY while they Investigate, but to cancel all ocean races seems a vastly overreaching position. I know they are now part of the bs homeland security bunch now but still...is it even in their purview to do so? And arguments about the costs associated with saving lives does not apply, it does not change their remit or range.

I would love a maritime lawyer to chime in as personal responsibility on the sea is a vastly different animal to the laws on land even in the over legislated US...
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:33   #42
Registered User
 
Target9000's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans LA
Boat: 74 Westsail 32
Posts: 1,379
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Bash,

Have to disagree. Yes the coastie invested tons of time, but that is one of the reasons they actually exist. Also, when was the last fatality in that race? A long time ago as I understand it. Also, what are they going "to do" to "fix" the problem once they take time to think it through? Start adding regulations and rules to private yachting?

Forgive me for being upset. I'm tired of people that knee jerk and regulate when accidents happen. Just today I was reading an article on CNN about merits of banning soft drinks. I was raised with a different idea of America in my head and the cognitive dissonance is starting to drive me crazy.

=(
__________________
Let your heart tell you where to go, but let your brain tell you how to get there.

Sundowner Sails Again
Target9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:45   #43
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Normally I find you the voice of reason Bash, however in the historical context of lives lost and not, in racing, this "decision" by the USCG is rash. At best they should have cancelled races around the farallones ONLY while they Investigate, but to cancel all ocean races seems a vastly overreaching position.
I appreciate the complement.

Only two races lost their permits. The Duxship and the Single-handed Farallones. No races after May 21 are effected. No races were cancelled inside the bay, which is where the great majority of SF racing takes place.

In both of the cancelled races, boats spend more than 90% of the sailing time in restricted shipping lanes. These are real different races than something like the Windjamer (which I've won, by the way, which might make you want to reconsider your complement about my rationality.) These aren't races that just take place ten miles offshore, as an earlier corresponded claimed. They start inside the bay, and there's a great deal of short-tacking involved not only to get through the gate, but also to get through the shoal areas. As you know, a common strategy when working against adverse currents through the gate is to snug close to the rocks for relief. These races are always fingernail-biters.

As I understand it, by Memorial Day, everything will be back to normal, and the groups running the races that lost their permits can get new permits at that point. The big question is going to be whether there will be a stand-off zone when using the Farallones as a racing mark.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:54   #44
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,342
Re: USCG suspends permits for Ocean Races

"..But the fact of the matter is that the coast guard invested thousands of man-hours two weekends ago, ..."

and these Coasties would have been doing what?.... if they weren't out searching? Drinking coffee? Out patrolling anyway...?
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2012, 09:54   #45
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash

I appreciate the complement.

Only two races lost their permits. The Duxship and the Single-handed Farallones. No races after May 21 are effected. No races were cancelled inside the bay, which is where the great majority of SF racing takes place.
Ahhh, I should have read for myself instead of responding to the hysteria. As I said, the voice of reason.

Spent 7 years living and racing one design in SF, well familiar with the rock dodge. One of the most competitive, complicated and wonderful places to sail.

Oh, it's affected not effected - you are a professor for gods sake
__________________

__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
racing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.