Uncontrollable pointing into the wind in a minor blow

[SteveSadler]

I've also experienced this phenomenon on modern wide transom boats on 2 charters.
I just couldn't believe it happens so suddenly with no warning other than a slight gust. Your rudder angle indicator tells all. You're powered up nicely but have 5-10 degrees weather helm. At 15 degrees of heel, your bottom is dry up close to the rudder, gust hits, a chop introduces air to the top of the rudder, and instant ventilation occurs. Even at less heel, the rudder will cavitate under a certain load limit. The boat rounds up answering to the weather helm. The answer, of course, is less main, trimmed flatter and traveller down. You'll see the results on your rudder angle indicator. This is especially true when trying to steer by autopilot. Newer sailboats have twin rudders to insure that one is always deep and vertical.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

I've also experienced this phenomenon on modern wide transom boats on 2 charters.
I just couldn't believe it happens so suddenly with no warning other than a slight gust. Your rudder angle indicator tells all. You're powered up nicely but have 5-10 degrees weather helm. At 15 degrees of heel, your bottom is dry up close to the rudder, gust hits, a chop introduces air to the top of the rudder, and instant ventilation occurs. Even at less heel, the rudder will cavitate under a certain load limit. The boat rounds up answering to the weather helm. The answer, of course, is less main, trimmed flatter and traveller down. You'll see the results on your rudder angle indicator. This is especially true when trying to steer by autopilot. Newer sailboats have twin rudders to insure that one is always deep and vertical.

Aha! That makes sense... much better than my theories. And it happens at less than 15 degrees of heel? Yikes.

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

I've also experienced this phenomenon on modern wide transom boats on 2 charters.
I just couldn't believe it happens so suddenly with no warning other than a slight gust. Your rudder angle indicator tells all. You're powered up nicely but have 5-10 degrees weather helm. At 15 degrees of heel, your bottom is dry up close to the rudder, gust hits, a chop introduces air to the top of the rudder, and instant ventilation occurs. Even at less heel, the rudder will cavitate under a certain load limit. The boat rounds up answering to the weather helm. The answer, of course, is less main, trimmed flatter and traveller down. You'll see the results on your rudder angle indicator. This is especially true when trying to steer by autopilot. Newer sailboats have twin rudders to insure that one is always deep and vertical.

This sounds about what was happening. Definitely turned in an instant. I am guessing a modern wide transom boats with single rudder are all like that then. To be honest, I don't ever pay attention to rudder angle indicator.

[Bullshooter]

Something similar happened to me once. Turns out my friend's Pearson had a clip from the backstay to the end of the boom in lieu of a topping lift, and he forgot to undo this clip. If I remember correctly, this happened more on a close reach than a beam reach but a rapid rounding up with a loss of control occurred several times. We were looking at other causes so did not notice the clip.

Of course after we realized what had happened, we were mostly concerned with whether anybody saw us...

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Didn't even cross my mind. I never reefed a boat unless it's close to 30 knots.

Different strokes for different boats. Our 35 behaves better and doesn't lose speed with a first reef at 15 knots wind.

[Howler]

Reef early and reef often. Some boats loose steerage when they heel. Boats like that go faster with reduced sail and are much more comfortable at the helm.

If it’s rounding up in every gust from a beam reach, I doubt small mast rake or traveler adjustments would solve it.

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

I was sailing my friends Catalina 315 last weekend near Charleston. Its is a very nice, well maintained boat with original sails - 150 (guessing) genoa, and a in-mast main. Weather was great and a few miles offshore wind was blowing around 10 knots. Boat felt very balanced and helm feel was perfect. I had full genoa and full main up. Coming back the wind picked up a bit to roughly 12 knots. No biggie, right.

This is when things got strange. Every time it will puff to 15 knots the boat, instead of getting more heal, would stand up and just turn into the wind. You couldn't even fight it with the steering wheel inputs. It will just point into the wind. Every-time I would completely loose control for a few seconds.

I have owned a Catalina 27 and my current boat is Sabre 34. Under similar conditions my boats would heal more, and you will have to put a little force into the steering. What was going on with this 315 to cause a complete loss of control (quickly regained once boat is pointing into the wind) with such moderate wind speeds? I am completely puzzled.

P.S. This was on a beam reach.

Did you slacken off the topping lift?

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

I was sailing my friends Catalina 315 last weekend near Charleston. Its is a very nice, well maintained boat with original sails - 150 (guessing) genoa, and a in-mast main. Weather was great and a few miles offshore wind was blowing around 10 knots. Boat felt very balanced and helm feel was perfect. I had full genoa and full main up. Coming back the wind picked up a bit to roughly 12 knots. No biggie, right.

This is when things got strange. Every time it will puff to 15 knots the boat, instead of getting more heal, would stand up and just turn into the wind. You couldn't even fight it with the steering wheel inputs. It will just point into the wind. Every-time I would completely loose control for a few seconds.

I have owned a Catalina 27 and my current boat is Sabre 34. Under similar conditions my boats would heal more, and you will have to put a little force into the steering. What was going on with this 315 to cause a complete loss of control (quickly regained once boat is pointing into the wind) with such moderate wind speeds? I am completely puzzled.

P.S. This was on a beam reach.

Did you release your topping lift?

[Ardbeg]

I regularly sail in +15 knots with a recent vintage Catalina. 150 Genoa and full batten loose footed main, 7 foot keet. LOA +/- 40 feet.
I sail with one or two experienced racers as crew on Lake Ontario. We can sail withut reefing into the low 20's Knots. We will sometimes have the rail in the water but maintain 15-25 deg heel. Our speed is usually 7-8 knots although we have seen +8 when surfing. My boat will want to sail into the wind as well. An old salt told me that you want a boat the rights up into the wind in case you fall off! (HAHA). On a boat like a Catalina the mast rake should be enough to keep the genoa halyard tight. The furling Genoa should not wobble. SO that is the first thing I would check. I would tighten the backstays until the forestay/halyard is tight and no wobble.
Sailing with big sails in big wind we manage the weather helm first with the traveller. Position of traveller can make a big difference to weather helm. You said you were on a beam. We keep the boom vang tight even though conventional wisdom might be to release somewhat when not pointing high. We sail a beam with sails fairly tight, not way out like parachutes. It gives more speed but also makes the boat more stable. Do you have ticklers on the sails? They will also tell a story to see if you are balanced. My cars stay near the back in light and heavy wind. They do not seem to be big factor in sailing ability. You did not mention wing keel or deep keel. I used to have a wing keel on a 33 foot production boat. Hated it as it is harder to sail properly than a deep keel. All above just my humble opinion.

[thomm225]

So I dealt with this as always on my boat on a beam reach again today.

You have to ease the main and if it starts to flutter, it's time to reef. I was too lazy to reef so I headed more off the wind since I wasn't necessarily headed to any exact anchorage

I don't have a traveler to let down so all I can do is ease the main, reef, or head off.

When I raced, we would either use steering when a gust hit or we would constantly be on the mainsheet or traveler depending on the sailor.

Some preferred to correct by heading up while others eased the sheets then bring them back in depending on the wind strength.

I had winds around 15-17 knots today on the beam

Btw, tightening the outhaul isn't going to do much. It will have minor impact

[DEAN2140]

No one has mentioned the vang. If you keep the vang loose, that puts more twist in the leach and allows some of the wind to spill out. Mainsheet, traveler, vang, back stay, then reef.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

Ease traveller, ease main, reef large genny to no more than 100%, reef main...

Not exactly brain surgery.

What, in 12~15 knots of wind? My Parker 27 is a light boat (Racer/Cruiser) and with 150% genny I don't need to reef till 17kts of steady wind (gusts not included) and even on a broad reach I hardly have any weather helm unless I let her heel too much (+20º)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Didn't even cross my mind. I never reefed a boat unless it's close to 30 knots.

You like to go slow and slip sideways a lot, huh?

And on that boat you prefer to have instant loss of steering when the rudder ventilates?

Once you know the boat's characteristics you learn to sail it. From what I have expereinced, on wide aft boats with long booms and single rudders, you need to flatten the main, let the traveler down, and ease the mainsheet in a gust. You need to catch that round up before it starts, once the rudder loses its grip it will be tough to prevent the round-up. Often you will be carrying a lot of bubble in the main.

If that is not enough correction, then a reef is required.

Reefing is not a threat to your manhood.

[Fbfisher]

It’s the main. The beauty of a furling main is that you can remove as much or as little weather helm as you like by simply furling the main until the rudder is positioned where you want it as indicated by the helm position. With the auto pilot on, it is easy to watch the helm come to center as you furl.

Cheers!

[gonesail]

i chartered a Catalina 31 once and had the same problem .. weather helm and rounding up in puffs of wind. also the boat did not track well either. but had a great interior and cockpit.