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Old 17-02-2015, 21:18   #91
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Jim Shekhdar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be a civil dispute. I doubt they got to keep it, but then NZ law?
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:39   #92
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

My memory was a bit wobbly...they claimed salvage... but the intent ( stated at the time ) was simply to thwart any further attempts.
It must have worked as I can find no further reference to him or his intended voyage.

PS I have just corrected that wiki page... pretty slack research by the Guardian..
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Old 19-02-2015, 03:04   #93
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
It would be a civil dispute. I doubt they got to keep it, but then NZ law?
They would have been quite entitled to claim salvage under any law ( probly admiralty law in this case)... abandonment doesn't come into it.

The RNLI normally just saves life... but back in the dream time there was a case where a crew claimed salvage... memory shaky re the details but it did happen.

The kiwi ship could have just saved him and let his boat go where it wished...

Salvage was the icing on the cake for the lucky few ... take a broken down steamer in tow... salvage money... company got the cream, captain got the icing , the deck boy?... a few months pay maybe...

That was the case even if you took one of your own company's ships in tow... BP Tankers had a few cases like that, also Holts. No question of abandonment... just a broken down ship... prop fallen off ( yes it used to happen...one of our company ships dropped hers in mid atlantic...probly still does )... flooded engine room ...( sweet 'Violanda'...she should have been my retirement fund but it was not to be...)

When I went to sea there was always a bloody great wire on a drum up frd called the 'insurance wire'. Designed to be used if you needed a tow so you used your line not the salvors....

Not sure what the outcome was in the NZ case... I was in NZ at the time but sailed before it was settled.. that wiki page seems to be still controlled by the rower.
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Old 19-02-2015, 06:08   #94
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
I agree. I've definitely done stuff on a boat, and got away with it, that if it hadn't gone right, people would be reading about me and saying, "What an idiot." But, as I get older, that kind of stuff happens less and less.
But you know if they'd made it, there would have been a ready contingent of folks here who would forever quote it as an example of how totally unprepared crew in a totally unprepared boat in the wrong season CAN do xyz.
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Old 19-02-2015, 14:07   #95
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
They would have been quite entitled to claim salvage under any law ( probly admiralty law in this case)... abandonment doesn't come into it.

The RNLI normally just saves life... but back in the dream time there was a case where a crew claimed salvage... memory shaky re the details but it did happen.

The kiwi ship could have just saved him and let his boat go where it wished...

Salvage was the icing on the cake for the lucky few ... take a broken down steamer in tow... salvage money... company got the cream, captain got the icing , the deck boy?... a few months pay maybe...

That was the case even if you took one of your own company's ships in tow... BP Tankers had a few cases like that, also Holts. No question of abandonment... just a broken down ship... prop fallen off ( yes it used to happen...one of our company ships dropped hers in mid atlantic...probly still does )... flooded engine room ...( sweet 'Violanda'...she should have been my retirement fund but it was not to be...)

When I went to sea there was always a bloody great wire on a drum up frd called the 'insurance wire'. Designed to be used if you needed a tow so you used your line not the salvors....

Not sure what the outcome was in the NZ case... I was in NZ at the time but sailed before it was settled.. that wiki page seems to be still controlled by the rower.
I'm not spending time looking into it, and there has been quite a few discussions on CF about 'salvage rights' with some pretty good input, and I seriously doubt 'Salvage rights' includes rescuing someone at sea with their vessel and then confiscating their vessel as 'salvage rights'.
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Old 19-02-2015, 14:42   #96
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I'm not spending time looking into it, and there has been quite a few discussions on CF about 'salvage rights' with some pretty good input, and I seriously doubt 'Salvage rights' includes rescuing someone at sea with their vessel and then confiscating their vessel as 'salvage rights'.
Wasn't confiscated....that was my mistake in an earlier post...they made a claim for salvage and the word given to the NZ press at the time was that it was done simply to stop him wasting their time rescuing him again.

When you rescue people you are under zero obligation to save their property... if you do then you have the right to claim salvage.
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Old 19-02-2015, 14:43   #97
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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But you know if they'd made it, there would have been a ready contingent of folks here who would forever quote it as an example of how totally unprepared crew in a totally unprepared boat in the wrong season CAN do xyz.
That's true. And I probably would be one of them under the right context.

But in this case, when it was quite clear from at least a week before (on this thread) they left that there was a considerable amount of concern being raised about their plans, then even if they had made it there would have still been people using it as an example of what not to do. And I would have been one of them.

I have not been critical of some of the more 'infamous' attempts, even involving age. Though I was initially of Lauren Dekker's plans until the authorities got involved and then I jumped ship to be 100% in her camp. I've not even been critical of those attempts to kayak across the ditch to New Zealand, or to row around the world. They are all doing something new with calculated risks and as long as they are well prepared, then I'm well behind them.

But when you get people who are just doing routine things like a delivery, or other holidays and are hugely under prepared, under resourced, under skilled, then I'll be critical because it not only puts their passengers lives at risk, but rescuers and it moves us a step closer to big brother stepping in and passing really stupid laws like needing permits to go sailing or 'user pay systems' for rescues.
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Old 19-02-2015, 14:56   #98
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post

When you rescue people you are under zero obligation to save their property... if you do then you have the right to claim salvage.
Like I said I don't know enough about this area. But is this correct? I'm not sure it's that black and white?

I know it's correct that if you salvage a vessel, you have a right to claim the costs, which is a civil claim. You certainly can't hold the vessel over here without a warrant which you can obtain once you make your claim.

But can you make 'any' claim at all if you go and rescue someone and then voluntarily decide to help rescue their property?
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Old 19-02-2015, 20:03   #99
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
But can you make 'any' claim at all if you go and rescue someone and then voluntarily decide to help rescue their property?
Yes you can...because you voluntarily decided to incur cost and risk to salvage the property.
It is beyond rare for services such as the RN, the USCG and the RNLI to claim salvage but there was at least one case .. Lifeboat Scrapbook: Salvage

In this case in NZ it was done by the crew and owners of a government ship soley to stop the rower having a third go. They were quite within their rights to do what they did.
If you salvage a ship or yacht it goes to court and the court decides how much of the vessel's worth you will get based on what risk and effort was involved. A dismasted but crewed yacht on a sunny afternoon using their tow line?..not very much. An abandoned freighter on a lee shore...rather a lot...not for nothing are there big privately owned salvage tugs sitting on standby around the world just waiting their chance to get some fat and juicy pickings.

The fact that you just so happened to rescue the crew before salvaging the ship is neither here nor there.

If you every do need salvaging or even a tow when disabled.... stay on board, use your own towrope, and don't let the 'salvors' board your boat, but best of all, negotiate a price for the job before you let them take your rope.

I've only been towed once- by a Japanese tug with the unlikely name of 'Daisy'... from just west of Midway to Yokohama..main engine meltdown... that was on a daily rate.
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Old 25-02-2015, 07:37   #100
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

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?..One clearly doesn't contemplate 8K plus miles offshore with a new untested vessel(Ebay)with only coastal and daysailing experience, whether from the US or Australia, ending with a dangerous and expensive Coast Guard rescue. It has nothing to do with CG training and using available resources but rather to do with an unnecessary expense to the American taxpayer and a danger to the lives of our brave Coasties. . . .

What expense? They were probably on the clock anyway. They would likely have been training if not rescuing. Maybe the extra fuel from the navy is the only net cost to taxpayers. The whole incident is actually a good return on investment of buying all that equipment and many man hours of training. And I am sure if you asked the guys doing the rescue, they probably loved it. They live for that kind of action.


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Old 25-02-2015, 08:38   #101
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Re: Two sailors rescued 150 miles off Nantucket-Sedona (Merged)

Are there directions I cf for how these posts are suppose to flow. They all go in the same format and end up with the same posts.

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