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Old 08-04-2018, 23:50   #1
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Trailing Warps

I have looked unsuccessfully for a thread on trailing warps - can the members comment on a thought - When trailing Warps in big seas , is there a benefit in-

1. Tying knots in the warp , spaced at intervals to create more drag .

2. Splicing / Threading 5 or 10 meters of chain into the end of a warp , to help keep the warp below the surface


If anyone has any experience or thoughts on the above can they comment .
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Old 09-04-2018, 00:19   #2
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Re: Trailing Warps

You may find something of value here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-test-data-377
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Old 09-04-2018, 00:22   #3
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Re: Trailing Warps

i watched video of your fellow countryman sailing 40 feet cat in very large seas trailing warps. Actually biggest seas I have seen, apart from 'monster waves turning ships' type of videos. And he added knots, i think in 4 places on 120m of rope. Knot takes strength from the rope.

I plan similar stuff, but to splice spare rope onto main nylon rope and create several 'bumps' so no weakening of rope.

I like your idea about last couple metres with chain.
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Old 09-04-2018, 00:33   #4
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Re: Trailing Warps

Thanks for your post / interest - the spliced bumps is a good idea . In the book " Heavy Weather Sailing " - 2 x 100 m warps ( 45 Ft Yacht ) reduced the down wind / sea speed from 8 to 9 knots to about 4 knots . I suppose both warps and sea anchors both have their place depending on conditions , hope I never have to find out .
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:12   #5
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Re: Trailing Warps

a big loop from the stern cleats makes more drag than knots on a straight single attachment.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:44   #6
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Re: Trailing Warps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
a big loop from the stern cleats makes more drag than knots on a straight single attachment.
that is also what lagoon manual says. However, double length of rope required.

Apparently is the length that you need as waves go longer during storm.

Also one does not really want to slow down to 4 kn in such waves. Getting hit from behind dinghy and solar are first victims.
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Old 09-04-2018, 03:01   #7
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Re: Trailing Warps

I've done a lot of drogue testing, including warps. Since they are made from stuff you have, the smart answer is to go out and test them under power. Better than reading this.

  • It must be a loop. A straight line, even with knots, gives very, very little drag. Weakening doesn't matter though, because there isn't that much load. But they aren't worth the time.
  • Yes, chain in the middle. Just shackle it in.
  • Speed. Warps do not provide enough drag to do anything more than ease steering a bit. They will NOT prevent capsize, surfing, or pitchpoling. The drag will typically be 10x less than a commercial drogue. Not sayin' they can't be helpful, just don't confuse the two. Warps, drogues, JSDs, and parachutes are 4 very different categories and cannot be substituted for each other.
  • 4 knots. Interesting question. If the solar and dinghy are that vulnerable, I think they probably shouldn't be there or should be rigged differently. Drogues in general are unstable at speeds over 5 knots; they start pulling out of waves. If it can't slow you to 4 knots it won't prevent surfing. And since the waves are traveling at 20 knots, I'm not sure the difference between 4-6 knots is very important.
  • Two warps didn't slow a 45' boat from 9 knots to 4 knots. They probably stopped a few cases of incipient surfing. More likely they slowed the boat by 1 knot.
Seriously, go out and try it in moderate weather. You'll see just how little force there is. Don't say "I'm thinking this is what I will do in a storm" and expect it to work.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:13   #8
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Re: Trailing Warps

I have a buddy who was helping a family deliver a 39’ Irwin (I think) and got caught in a multi day game in the N Atlantic. They were eventually picked up by a freighter. The boat was starting to deteriorate.

I asked him about trailing warps, they had no drogues. He said they put out everything they had spare and it did no good.

Elsewhere a fellow described deploying a long line in a loop. He then puts out additional drag “devices” ( buckets, chain, whatever) by attaching the “device” to a piece of hose that can be run down the loop and retrieved if necessary.

Just a thought.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:30   #9
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Re: Trailing Warps

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I've done a lot of drogue testing, including warps. Since they are made from stuff you have, the smart answer is to go out and test them under power. Better than reading this.

  • It must be a loop. A straight line, even with knots, gives very, very little drag. Weakening doesn't matter though, because there isn't that much load. But they aren't worth the time.
  • Yes, chain in the middle. Just shackle it in.
  • Speed. Warps do not provide enough drag to do anything more than ease steering a bit. They will NOT prevent capsize, surfing, or pitchpoling. The drag will typically be 10x less than a commercial drogue. Not sayin' they can't be helpful, just don't confuse the two. Warps, drogues, JSDs, and parachutes are 4 very different categories and cannot be substituted for each other.
  • 4 knots. Interesting question. If the solar and dinghy are that vulnerable, I think they probably shouldn't be there or should be rigged differently. Drogues in general are unstable at speeds over 5 knots; they start pulling out of waves. If it can't slow you to 4 knots it won't prevent surfing. And since the waves are traveling at 20 knots, I'm not sure the difference between 4-6 knots is very important.
  • Two warps didn't slow a 45' boat from 9 knots to 4 knots. They probably stopped a few cases of incipient surfing. More likely they slowed the boat by 1 knot.
Seriously, go out and try it in moderate weather. You'll see just how little force there is. Don't say "I'm thinking this is what I will do in a storm" and expect it to work.
Good post!
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:42   #10
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Re: Trailing Warps

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
...Elsewhere a fellow described deploying a long line in a loop. He then puts out additional drag “devices” ( buckets, chain, whatever) by attaching the “device” to a piece of hose that can be run down the loop and retrieved if necessary....
That is the "abbott drogue" of Maxing Out." It is also one of the better descriptions of warp usage.

ABBOTT DROGUE
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:02   #11
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Re: Trailing Warps

I once chucked about 100 meters of warp out astern after our single element drogue started pulling out of the waves due to having a too short and too strechy line on the drogue and not enough chain.

The extra warp rigged in parallel helped a fair bit and the speed reduction more or less stopped the drogue ripping out. Still it would have been much better if our drogue had been on the end of the 100 meter warp. And ideally on 200 meters of low stretch line.

Even with the drogue and warp we were moving too fast and getting slammed pretty hard at times. It was a very vile night, and I was extremely glad when the wind eased at sunrise.
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Old 10-04-2018, 14:23   #12
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Re: Trailing Warps

Interesting story I read too many years ago.

Some guys in a 40' +/- monohull rigged up a drogue which consisted of a warp tied to each side of the stern with a dangling length of chain in the middle. Sorry I can't remember the details, but the most interesting part was that they attached a car tire to the chain.
They got caught in some bad weather going around the Cape of Good Hope and deployed the drogue which worked quite well for them. Apparently every time the boat started to take off surfing the trailing edge of the tire opened up and caught more water, which caused the boat to slow down and avoid pitchpoling.

I believe this was before the days of Jordan Series Drogues, etc.
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Old 10-04-2018, 15:19   #13
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Re: Trailing Warps

Another story heard second hand. Last year I spoke to an older fellow. He was coming back to the USA from Bermuda and got caught out. He put out a drogue, got pooped, took water which killed the engine and batteries. He sent a blind position and status report. Someone heard it and the USCG launched a helo to take him off. At the time he was about 60 miles off shore and progressing slowly. The diver told him “Go now or go never, 15 minutes”. So he reluctantly abandoned his otherwise healthy boat.

He had a lot to mull over and reconsider and Monday morning reflection.

He felt he deployed the drogue too early which prompted the poop. He reflected that if he had it to do again he would have waited to deploy the drogue until he really needed it to slow down.

Very interesting story from a very sincere fellow.

With our 44’ LOD, 37’LWL, 40,000 lbs displacement. I wonder under what conditions I would be to deploy a drogue and I would have the guts to work on the aft deck under those conditions.
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Old 10-04-2018, 15:46   #14
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Re: Trailing Warps

it worked quite well for this crew:

https://youtu.be/hQ-svmgOxqw

Let me say, i would not want to go 4 kn in this.
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Old 10-04-2018, 15:54   #15
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Re: Trailing Warps

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post

With our 44’ LOD, 37’LWL, 40,000 lbs displacement. I wonder under what conditions I would be to deploy a drogue and I would have the guts to work on the aft deck under those conditions.
Nice heavy cruiser like yours .... from my limited experience ... running under storm sail or bare rigging it would have to be more than force 10 or 70knots before you worried about drogues. Boat weight/inertia is good at keeping the boat under control when in heavy weather.
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