To Tack or Jibe?

[MarkSF]

Hmmm I agree that a properly-executed jibe is reasonable safe, but it is error-prone. It has to be done with precision and timing. One aspect of "properly-executed" is knowing when the wind is too strong, and chicken-jibing instead (tacking).

This debate seems rather ridiculous though. It's a bit like saying should I put salt or pepper on my food. There are times when tacking is appropriate, and jibing is appropriate. A sailor needs to be able to do both without error.

[thomm225]

Lessons .................. humm.

You are going downwind and you need to move the boom and sail to the otherside while you are steering the boat's stern across the wind.

Oops, wait. I was thinking singlehander. It's even easier with a crew.

It's not rocket science except on forums in winter.

You can walk yourself through it on the beach or during a really light wind day and develop your own techniques.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Okay guys, isn't this the big boys pool. You know, no inflatable arm floaties, or peeing in the water.

Jibing's simple, as in one of those basic sailing maneuvers. If I could do a 25'er when I was 8, or a 50'er now (solo, including runners, the helm, & a jib) when it's blowing 30+, it ain't that big a deal.

I mean jeez, if a 5' nothing, 100lb & nothing, woman could do it alone on a 75' trimaran, in the Southern Ocean while travelling at speeds usually attained only by cars... and set a world record for Solo Circumnavigation.. (Dame Ellen Macarthur, if that's unclear).
Hopefully my idea's getting through by now.

~ And if jibing's too difficult, there are those things, what are they called again? Oh yeah, training wheels.

Someone please put a lock on this thread.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Read the post of Oldfrog!
Properly executed jibe is less dangerous than a tack and not less controlled, (stress on the PROPERLY EXECUTED).
Just calculate the difference in apparent wind across the deck in the two situations.
On the other hand, if you do not understand the issue of apparent wind, you probably shouldn't jibe.

My advice to you: study the issue, and practice jibing until it becomes a standard manoeuvre and the decision will be dependent only on boat's sailing direction. You will by then feel that you have added an important skill to your arsenal.

Yes....... "Properly executed ".....but unfortunately it's not a perfect world!
Especially when single handing, but you are right... there is nothing wrong with a jibe, with enough hands and no tricky seas...

[jwing]

Originally Posted by kierjo

... is any reason why you would not just tack instead of jibe? ...

If your destination is downwind and the breeze is very gentle, a chicken jibe (that is, tacking through about 270 degrees) is likely to stall the boat. Much easier to do a proper jibe and keep your momentum.

Directly downstream is a difficult and dangerous point of sail. Wind rarely stays in one direction so you risk back-winding the main into an uncontrolled and unintentional jibe. If my destination is directly downwind, I like to point a little to the port or starboard and sail on a broad reach, then do a controlled jibe and broad reach on the other tack. It is safer and more fun than running, in my opinion.

The third instance were a jibe is preferred is in the case of crew overboard. If you are confident in jibing, the rescue can be faster and more likely to succeed than the figure 8 method that does not require a jibe.

Jibing can be very gentle on the boat and the crew. Practice in light wind until it becomes second nature, then practice jibing every time you go out. It is an important basic sailing skill and it is graceful and fun when done right.

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Okay guys, isn't this the big boys pool. You know, no inflatable arm floaties, or peeing in the water.

Jibing's simple, as in one of those basic sailing maneuvers. If I could do a 25'er when I was 8, or a 50'er now (solo, including runners, the helm, & a jib) when it's blowing 30+, it ain't that big a deal.

I mean jeez, if a 5' nothing, 100lb & nothing, woman could do it alone on a 75' trimaran, in the Southern Ocean while travelling at speeds usually attained only by cars... and set a world record for Solo Circumnavigation.. (Dame Ellen Macarthur, if that's unclear).
Hopefully my idea's getting through by now.

~ And if jibing's too difficult, there are those things, what are they called again? Oh yeah, training wheels.

Someone please put a lock on this thread.

Now that's an interesting debating technique. Essentially you're saying this is the definitive final word, no-one else should be able to say anything more, your's is the gospel, now lock the thread.

[giant]

If you crew on a race boat you will learn all about gybing and tacking etc because you will be doing it over and over again.

If you are self taught and maybe getting a lesson or two it is a world of confusion.

Crewing means it is not your boat so if you break something it is all just part of the fun and not going to cost you large $$$$$.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

Now that's an interesting debating technique. Essentially you're saying this is the definitive final word, no-one else should be able to say anything more, your's is the gospel, now lock the thread.

I didn't think he was being that pompous. I thought his point was similar to this one.

When racing my last Nacra which was the F-17, I raced it in the 1-up or singlehander mode most of the time which meant you only used the main and the spinnaker.

On the downwind runs, you had to gybe both the main and the spinnaker at boat speeds from 3 knots to 23 knots. This on a boat that weighs 300lbs with the same sail area as my 6600 lb Bristol.

It's just not that tough of a concept to grasp and execute........this gybing business.

Just go out and practice and get a technique down. Racing helps because you have to do it a lot. Often. Many, many times.

[giant]

When you know how to do something it is easy when you don't it is hard.

For me familiarity and practice builds confidence.

Sailing different boats with different crews and skippers builds a broad repertoire of skills and tricks.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by giant

When you know how to do something it is easy when you don't it is hard.

For me familiarity and practice builds confidence.

Sailing different boats with different crews and skippers builds a broad repertoire of skills and tricks.

Calculus is hard when you don't know it but learning to jibe a sailboat just isn't that tough which is why you can rent one with almost no experience.

http://www.keysailing.com/Rentals.html

[giant]

Agree that it is not that hard to do, but even on boats with skilled crew it can go seriously wrong and experience will teach you instincts, anticipation and how to react in an emergency.

As in the "Wild Rose" video the pit person knew to blow the spinnaker halyard to depower the boat hence saving a lot of grief. This was an instantaneous reaction and this comes from experience and practice not from reading it on the internet or hearing an instructor mention it to you in a lesson you had six months ago.

Reacting the right way instantaneously in an emergency generally only comes from experience in my opinion.

Generally also I might say small boat small problem big boat big problem. Not saying one is better than the other just the forces and mass add up on bigger boats and bigger boats spend more time in the ocean where there are bigger waves, winds etc and further from outside help etc.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by giant

Agree that it is not that hard to do, but even on boats with skilled crew it can go seriously wrong and experience will teach you instincts, anticipation and how to react in an emergency.

As in the "Wild Rose" video the pit person knew to blow the spinnaker halyard to depower the boat hence saving a lot of grief. This was an instantaneous reaction and this comes from experience and practice not from reading it on the internet or hearing an instructor mention it to you in a lesson you had six months ago.

Reacting the right way instantaneously in an emergency generally only comes from experience in my opinion.

Generally also I might say small boat small problem big boat big problem. Not saying one is better than the other just the forces and mass add up on bigger boats and bigger boats spend more time in the ocean where there are bigger waves, winds etc and further from outside help etc.

Yep, but this thread was for someone that wasn't quite sure which was a tack and which was a jibe. I was simply thinking that an afternoon out with a sailing buddy on the lake would do the trick. (not on a Farr 40 during the Sydney Hobart Race)

Or

read a book and practice on your own boat when the wind is light


Geezus H a Farr 40 has a PHRf of -6 with mast head spinnaker

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

Now that's an interesting debating technique. Essentially you're saying this is the definitive final word, no-one else should be able to say anything more, your's is the gospel, now lock the thread.

You're welcome to any opinion or stance that you like. What I'm saying, is that barring being on a big boat, with a kite (especially a symmetric one) & possibly a staysail up (in a stiff breeze), there's only so much that can be said about sliding the ass end of the boat through the wind.
Now if you want to start a thread on how to do a 2-pole spinnaker jibe on a Maxi, when it's blowing north of 30kts, then that's another story.

Jibing is a sailing 101 maneuver, & if you live in fear of it, then you need to go out & practice it. For until you have it down, & down to the point where you can do it sans thought, in atrocious conditions, after being awake for 2+ days, then you don't have a functioning, foundational skill set to operate the boat.

Which doesn't mean that the maneuver is dangerous, but it is possible that to some degree, the vessel's operator may be. And said operator may also be instilling unneeded & or un-warranted fears (and or dangerous habits also) into crew & guests.
In addition to the possibility that due to lack of skill, if there's a true emergency, like say a MOB, then even more peril may be induced into the situation (unnecessarily, due to not being able to seamlessly execute this maneuver).

So pretty much, get over it, learn how to jibe correctly, sans stress. If you need coaching ask, there are lots of folks who'd be happy to help.
But posts on basic stuff which run on endlessly (with no end in sight) are a Pain in the Arse. Kind of like some of the other threads on here which run on for pages & pages, but offer up naught but speculation & hot air. It's rather wearysome, & IMO, on this topic, silly.
- As, as I alluded to, I was given full run of a 3 ton vessel when I was in the 3rd grade. To include; carrying out, directing, & or teaching others, all tasks on the vessel. It ain't rocket science.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I didn't think he was being that pompous. I thought his point was similar to this one.

When racing my last Nacra which was the F-17, I raced it in the 1-up or singlehander mode most of the time which meant you only used the main and the spinnaker.

On the downwind runs, you had to gybe both the main and the spinnaker at boat speeds from 3 knots to 23 knots. This on a boat that weighs 300lbs with the same sail area as my 6600 lb Bristol.

It's just not that tough of a concept to grasp and execute........this gybing business.

Just go out and practice and get a technique down. Racing helps because you have to do it a lot. Often. Many, many times.

It's just not that simple a concept to implement. Size does matter. On a bigger boat and single-handing with a kite, it's best not to let the main out all the way so the boom can cross over a bit more calmly when you're ready to gybe and can deal with the spinnaker by itself. My boat is 20K lbs and total sail area of spin and main is nearly 1100 square feet. Although the actions are the same, I don't think the reactions are going to be the same as on a smaller boat. That said, everyone should know how to gybe their boat. I would not understand how anyone could avoid or would never want to do a gybe.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

But posts on basic stuff which run on endlessly (with no end in sight) are a Pain in the Arse. Kind of like some of the other threads on here which run on for pages & pages, but offer up naught but speculation & hot air. It's rather wearysome, & IMO, on this topic, silly

Seriously??