This is Getting Ridiculous

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Read post #101 and watch the original footage.....

Sorry if I was harsh...but volunteers dying because they are in over their heads still doesn't look good or do anything constructive.

There are volunteer orgs all over the world and some are better equipped and trained than pros in other areas....knowing your limitations and equipment is necessary whether the sailor or the rescuers...I'm assuming this is what the thread is really about anyway.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

IMHO

We are all greenhorns when we go for our first passage, we are also greenhorns for a time afterwards, making consecutive passages. And then we become complacent. So, to me, it makes perfect sense that there are also "inadequately prepared" sailors out there, doing it.

And as for all the heaving hove honors: it is not the ultimate technique to be used in any real dangerous, build up system, unless your craft is pretty darn big. To all those in a small craft, it is fine to do such gimmicks in the early stage of a storm but a first class ticked to disaster once the seas turn large.

b.

Sounds like what this thread is all about....if you are saying "greenhorn" as a passage where you are the captain.

You really think the captain of a warship or huge merchantman or cruise liner is assigned and off they go?

They make dozens if not hundreds of open water passages before taking command and going to sea. Which sorta eliminates the label "greenhorn".

The "staff" runs the boat but the skipper is in charge...so in reality whether a 30 foot sail boat or a 1030 foot nuc aircraft carrier...you would think experience for crossing an ocean would be relatively the same...even if you don't the premise of doing it a couple times in a similar craft before you do it on your own, especially with your family might be a good idea.

If your first ever crossing is one where you are in charge of a little boat with and inexperienced crew and less than perfect craft....you pretty much either get lucky or exactly what you deserved.

I've got probably over 100,000 blue water miles on everything the USCG had between 1977 and 1999 from 95 feet to 399 feet plus my own boats and deliveries.

I'm pretty scared to cross an ocean on a small vessel and for my first time I would never dream of doing it with me alone as the "experience person". I can talk endlessly on blue water rescues..but my experience come from the vantage point of looking down...not up.

[barnakiel]

Yep. It is as you put it.

b.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Well at least that video can finally end the argument that monos are definitely safer then cats. One rolled and one stayed flipped. Case closed. Hahaha

LOL..... No response..
I guess the cat's got their tongue! )

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

LOL..... No response..
I guess the cat's got their tongue! )

It was a power cat, if it had a mast and respectable beam, it never would a happened


Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Jimbo485]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

That footage is from my neck of the woods in Moreton Bay Queensland Australia. In those days the Wales Rescue Helicopter Service (now the Westpac Life Saver Rescue Helicopter Service) was a volunteer based service that relied on sponsorship and community donations (and still does to a great degree) to keep it going...

Westpac Life Saver Rescue Helicopter Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Original footage without the Stacy Keach voice over.....

Yes, I remember that happening, I was a kid and we were within a month or so of departing. The lesson my old man got was that the hatch boards for the companionway should be tied to something. When the mono rolled it took on a lot of water and he lost the ability to close off the companionway.

So my father put on a stainless loop and some line.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Gentlemen, You do realize that the fine CG folks either rescue people or perform training, pretty much every day don't you. There is no appreciable extra cost to the taxpayer.

The CG, least ways around the SF Bay area, are always running about training pretty much all the time. This includes hilo deploy/retrieve training, C130 drops, fast boat training, inter-agency training, live fire training, you name it. I see it all the time. Cool to watch too.

So stop belly aching about wasted tax dollars. The money is spent in either case.

Also if emergency services would just sit around all day and only come out on "real" emergencies people would complain as well about wasted tax money.
And having them sit around idle most of the time would certainly reduce their effectiveness as well...

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

I have to admit I liked Alchemy's suggestion that all newbies be required to serve on a delivery trip. The only flaw in the concept is what delivery skipper wants that kind of crew?!

That's actually why I am fond of suggesting that newbies serve as crew on race boats, because they do go out in weather that most cruisers hide from, and the experience is a good teacher. Best, of course, if you get out in the ocean. Learning to cope with unpleasant conditions under the mentoring of the skippers you sail with can be really useful. So, too, is intentionally going out in storm conditions and try heaving to then. The bigger the seas are, the boat will behave somewhat differently. You experiment. Can you actually stop the boat? Lots of us aren't truly hove to, we fore-reach slowly.

What I think I see are a lot of people who are either psychologically unprepared or have inadequate practice of skills they need to have a chance to survive on the ocean. I do not think legislation will solve this problem, as the instant gratification society is so far developed. Possibly some kind of mentoring system might work, but.......maybe there would be unintended consequences of that, too.

Ann

I concur completely, Ann: I raced for five seasons in May-October on Lake Ontario (all sorts of interesting weather), solo sailed in "anything goes" weather during that time and after and only with eight years' sailing under my belt did I work as delivery crew. Same with my wife. I did not mean to suggest that a total newbie do an Atlantic delivery, but that an experienced crew, or someone considering an ocean-capable boat purchase, do a delivery on the ocean to see if they want to take those extra steps. The idea that you can buy something at a boat show, go tooling around the harbour in the summer and then go to Bermuda strikes me as saying you can be a 16 year old student driver in a MacLaren at Le Mans.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

IMHO

And as for all the heaving hove honors: it is not the ultimate technique to be used in any real dangerous, build up system, unless your craft is pretty darn big. To all those in a small craft, it is fine to do such gimmicks in the early stage of a storm but a first class ticked to disaster once the seas turn large.

b.

Agreed, but I did not get the sense in the original story that conditions were getting worse, just that they had been harsh for some time and the crew was more fatigued than the boat. In that sense, this story resembles a number of similar stories in the last five years, in which people unprepared for the rough stuff have a crisis of energy and/or nerve in the proximity of Big Red.

Hove to is to take a break, make some soup, deal with leaks or water below, and to take stock. It's not a "get out of ocean free" card.

[sailvayu]

Personally I carry a para sea anchor. I have never used it but would if things got to the point where rest was needed. All the arguments (less jet ski support) seem to boil down to being prepared and having a plan to deal with what ever may come your way. Anyone who has experience knows that even in benign conditions things can and do wear on you. Every sailor needs to know there limits and plan for the worst. I never assume a passage even if just for a day is going to be easy. I assume it is going to be hard and when it is not I am happy but if it is hard well I knew it would be and I am ready to deal with it. I do not know anyone who was rescued because they over prepared!

[Crosis]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Gentlemen, You do realize that the fine CG folks either rescue people or perform training, pretty much every day don't you. There is no appreciable extra cost to the taxpayer.

The CG, least ways around the SF Bay area, are always running about training pretty much all the time. This includes hilo deploy/retrieve training, C130 drops, fast boat training, inter-agency training, live fire training, you name it. I see it all the time. Cool to watch too.

So stop belly aching about wasted tax dollars. The money is spent in either case.

Wow, Since the gravity of this escapes you lets understand that the USCG has limited boats and while they were out "rescuing" people that were only suffering from discomfort and inconvenience, there may have been people that really needed help that couldn't get it. Its like a hospital ER. You go in with your broken arm and get to wait 8 hours to get it casted because there are 15 cry baby morons with the sniffles ahead of you.

[Richard5]

Originally Posted by Crosis

Wow, Since the gravity of this escapes you lets understand that the USCG has limited boats and while they were out "rescuing" people that were only suffering from discomfort and inconvenience, there may have been people that really needed help that couldn't get it. Its like a hospital ER. You go in with your broken arm and get to wait 8 hours to get it casted because there are 15 cry baby morons with the sniffles ahead of you.

Do you understand that reallocation of SAR assets in itself is an evolution of which practice tends towards perfect? The following audit would be demonstrably worth gold in furthering the efficacy of the SAR system.

I'm not saying that the sailor should call for babysitting so to offer the men a valued experience. I am saying even those 'needless' missions allow for insight which may prove valuable in future missions. Of course, it also keeps the rust off.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Crosis

Wow, Since the gravity of this escapes you lets understand that the USCG has limited boats and while they were out "rescuing" people that were only suffering from discomfort and inconvenience, there may have been people that really needed help that couldn't get it. Its like a hospital ER. You go in with your broken arm and get to wait 8 hours to get it casted because there are 15 cry baby morons with the sniffles ahead of you.

I don't know of any ER where they will treat you in order of arrival regardless of your condition. The same applies to SAR. If some more pressing emergency would have appeared the resources would have been reallocated.

[BigBoater917]

It's probably time to start a serious discussion about requiring licenses for recreational boaters in the US. A minimum of training can help prevent many (not all, stuff does happen) of the incidents mentioned.

[DeepFrz]

Wow, Since the gravity of this escapes you lets understand that the USCG has limited boats and while they were out "rescuing" people that were only suffering from discomfort and inconvenience, there may have been people that really needed help that couldn't get it.

Don't you get it? Seasickness can be life threatening.