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Old 25-07-2014, 12:43   #91
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Gentlemen, You do realize that the fine CG folks either rescue people or perform training, pretty much every day don't you. There is no appreciable extra cost to the taxpayer.

The CG, least ways around the SF Bay area, are always running about training pretty much all the time. This includes hilo deploy/retrieve training, C130 drops, fast boat training, inter-agency training, live fire training, you name it. I see it all the time. Cool to watch too.

So stop belly aching about wasted tax dollars. The money is spent in either case.
I would submit that the USCG "practice" isn't really the right focus. With so many people in (allegedly) well-found boats going to sea without any real sense of what sailing is like, nor that they can heave to and essentially stop (or drift a bit) while they rest and recover, we are left with a situation in which insurers and lawmakers will "nanny-state" sailing to protect the incompentent and unprepared from what I call "Darwin's scythe".

Take a goddamn lesson, newbies! Crew a delivery! Practice heaving to! I know it's hard work...hell, I didn't sail until I was pushing 40...but I cannot express that the ocean will kill the unprepared, and the only way to avoid that is dumb luck or preparation...and sometimes both.

I would add that I used to be agnostic on the case for RYA or other boathandling licensing standards and qualifications in order to run a boat as is the case in Europe, but I am beginning to think letting a daysailer offshore is a crime in the same way as letting a toddler negotiate a highway.
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Old 25-07-2014, 12:55   #92
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

Many short fin keel spade rudder boats will not heave to in a seaway. I don't know why people keep talking about heaving to when the boats wont do it. A number of the more experienced sailors on this forum have discussed that in other threads here. So, if you have a modern canoe hull, short fin/spade rudder boat go out in a blow and see what happens when you try to heave to.
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Old 25-07-2014, 13:11   #93
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Many short fin keel spade rudder boats will not heave to in a seaway. I don't know why people keep talking about heaving to when the boats wont do it. A number of the more experienced sailors on this forum have discussed that in other threads here. So, if you have a modern canoe hull, short fin/spade rudder boat go out in a blow and see what happens when you try to heave to.
It keeps being discussed because the inability to heave to should be a factor in determining whether a boat is fit for the purpose of offshore sailing. Insert sound of can o' worms opening here.

I feel this is particularly the case with older couples and new boats. If you can't stop, you can't rest.

For the record, my '70s IOR fin keeled sloop a long J and with a spade rudder can heave to, as can my 1980s steel full-keel cutter with a transom hung rudder. But they do so in rather different ways.

So perhaps the fault is not in our seamanship, but in our hull designs, which are advertised as "Lloyd's A Ocean" capable, but cannot do perhaps the most useful thing a short-handed crew could want: heave to and/or forereach in a docile manner to provide a break in conditions that otherwise would demand active steering and inevitable thrashing about.
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Old 25-07-2014, 14:02   #94
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

This happened here in Southeastern North Carolina yesterday in a rented pontoon boat.
At least once a week some boater requires CG assistance. Do we say no to everybody?

Coast Guard rescues 10 boaters near Bald Head Island - WECT TV6-WECT.com:News, weather & sports Wilmington, NC
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Old 25-07-2014, 14:31   #95
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
For me this is not about the money it is more about if this type of thing keeps happening we as sailors are going to find restrictions placed on us.
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Also it is an issue of people not being fully prepared for offshore sailing. And by fully prepared i mean mentally prepared as well as a well founded vessel. If you are not prepared for some hardship you really do not understand what ocean sailing involves, it can be down right challenging at times. I feel many set off not fully understanding this and are not prepared to stick it out. I think this is an aspect of offshore sailing that is often over looked.
Yep, people just seem to get in a boat, go out and then want rescued. It aint good. Not everybody is cut out for spending a few hours being thrown around in the Gulfstream (like the Downeaster story). how to control those newbies from doing stupid things they aren't ready for?
I don't think a license will do it. Maybe a sea time requirement on other's boats....
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Old 25-07-2014, 14:36   #96
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Gentlemen, You do realize that the fine CG folks either rescue people or perform training, pretty much every day don't you. There is no appreciable extra cost to the taxpayer.
Yes its better to do a real live rescue for some losers in fair weather, and get your practice in that way, and be better prepared for when all hell breaks loose than any other way.
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Old 25-07-2014, 14:51   #97
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

Go, go, go!!



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Old 25-07-2014, 15:55   #98
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

I am so very grateful that there are agencies that exist for all of our protection, and am beyond appreciative and in awe of the men and women who go to work every day with the realization that they may be called upon that day to put their very life on the line in order to respond to the need of someone else. It's not a small thing they do, and it's not a small thing to ask them to do it.

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Old 25-07-2014, 16:21   #99
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

I have to admit I liked Alchemy's suggestion that all newbies be required to serve on a delivery trip. The only flaw in the concept is what delivery skipper wants that kind of crew?!

That's actually why I am fond of suggesting that newbies serve as crew on race boats, because they do go out in weather that most cruisers hide from, and the experience is a good teacher. Best, of course, if you get out in the ocean. Learning to cope with unpleasant conditions under the mentoring of the skippers you sail with can be really useful. So, too, is intentionally going out in storm conditions and try heaving to then. The bigger the seas are, the boat will behave somewhat differently. You experiment. Can you actually stop the boat? Lots of us aren't truly hove to, we fore-reach slowly.

What I think I see are a lot of people who are either psychologically unprepared or have inadequate practice of skills they need to have a chance to survive on the ocean. I do not think legislation will solve this problem, as the instant gratification society is so far developed. Possibly some kind of mentoring system might work, but.......maybe there would be unintended consequences of that, too.

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Old 25-07-2014, 16:39   #100
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

I have skipped from the first post entry to here, so I likely have missed several cogent remarks and might be redundant/totally offbase. But why should that hold me back

My feeling is that lack of sleep (exhaustion) and poor diet can be extremely detrimental to proper seamanship. Add in seasickness, fear and demanding conditions and I can readily see the opportunity for disaster. For the less experienced or capable, this can be crippling.

I personally know that my abilities diminish on longer passages due to a disrupted sleep schedule. When short handed, or even with experienced help, I find myself somewhat out of sorts around the third day - when I am the skipper! On other boats as crew, my worries seem to be much less, and a four hour nap can work for me. But when I am responsible for the boat and souls on board, the stress builds up - especially in traffic areas or challenging conditions

I would like to hear what others do to handle this, as I sense I am not alone in this.

As for calling for help, I will not prejudge the poor couple in the news story.
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Old 25-07-2014, 17:10   #101
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
I am so very grateful that there are agencies that exist for all of our protection, and am beyond appreciative and in awe of the men and women who go to work every day with the realization that they may be called upon that day to put their very life on the line in order to respond to the need of someone else. It's not a small thing they do, and it's not a small thing to ask them to do it.

That footage is from my neck of the woods in Moreton Bay Queensland Australia. In those days the Wales Rescue Helicopter Service (now the Westpac Life Saver Rescue Helicopter Service) was a volunteer based service that relied on sponsorship and community donations (and still does to a great degree) to keep it going...

Westpac Life Saver Rescue Helicopter Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Original footage without the Stacy Keach voice over.....

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Old 25-07-2014, 17:11   #102
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
I am so very grateful that there are agencies that exist for all of our protection, and am beyond appreciative and in awe of the men and women who go to work every day with the realization that they may be called upon that day to put their very life on the line in order to respond to the need of someone else. It's not a small thing they do, and it's not a small thing to ask them to do it.

Well at least that video can finally end the argument that monos are definitely safer then cats. One rolled and one stayed flipped. Case closed. Hahaha
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Old 25-07-2014, 17:14   #103
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
I am so very grateful that there are agencies that exist for all of our protection, and am beyond appreciative and in awe of the men and women who go to work every day with the realization that they may be called upon that day to put their very life on the line in order to respond to the need of someone else. It's not a small thing they do, and it's not a small thing to ask them to do it.
Wow...thanks for the praise to brave rescue crews....I'm not familiar who is in the cat rescue boat or the helo...but both seem pretty amateurish in that video.

Well trained help with correct equipment could have had the sailboater out in a minute or so and if necessary both rescuers in the cat rescue boat in just a couple more. Skid rescues like that play nice for the media..when they work but are no where's near the minimum bar for trained, well equipped rescue teams.
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Old 25-07-2014, 17:17   #104
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Wow...thanks for the praise to brave rescue crews....I'm not familiar who is in the cat rescue boat or the helo...but both seem pretty amateurish in that video.

Well trained help with correct equipment could have had the sailboater out in a minute or so and if necessary both rescuers in the cat rescue boat in just a couple more. Skid rescues like that play nice for the media..when they work but are no where's near the minimum bar for trained rescue teams.
Read post #101 and watch the original footage.....

And this is what the service has grown in to from those "amateurish" days of the 70's and 80's.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westpac...copter_Service

http://www.lifesaving.com.au/communi...escue-service/
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Old 25-07-2014, 17:24   #105
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

IMHO

We are all greenhorns when we go for our first passage, we are also greenhorns for a time afterwards, making consecutive passages. And then we become complacent. So, to me, it makes perfect sense that there are also "inadequately prepared" sailors out there, doing it.

And as for all the heaving hove honors: it is not the ultimate technique to be used in any real dangerous, build up system, unless your craft is pretty darn big. To all those in a small craft, it is fine to do such gimmicks in the early stage of a storm but a first class ticked to disaster once the seas turn large.

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