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Old 23-07-2014, 08:41   #31
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

Perhaps a bit of modification of Gungho cruiser sentiment is in order.. Re the Atlantic, the Gulf Stream apparently ripped ChikiRafiki to pieces. For years as far as I know Bay Area sailors have been cautioned to beware of venturing north of PT Reyes. I personally saw the effects to a fine custom aluminium 60 ft cutter that ventured west of Vancouver Island in November. Dismasted, rolled, absolutely trashed. The crew was a Norsk couple who were veteran North Sea sailors, they survived but barely. Every cruising area has unique challenges that folks should be encouraged to respect. Perhaps a bit of restraint urged on relevant forums might prevent some folks from bitting off more than they can chew.
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Old 23-07-2014, 09:34   #32
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

We live in an entitlement society where personal responsibility is never a factor. As others have mentioned, this will eventually create more restrictions on boats/sailors as the situation worsens. The real problem is that prospective sailors read a few books, buy a boat, equip it will all the indispensable electronic aids that will insulate them from any harm, take a few sails and without any learning curve or real experience head for distant horizons. I believe music provides an excellent analogy. When one begins to study music, they are concerned with technique, sight reading, tone, interpretation and acceptable performance. To introduce a beginning student to a Bach violin concerto is absurdity in its greatest form since the student is not prepared for the performance of such advanced music. He will stumble through the passages with poor tone, poor execution, inconsistent dynamics and will generally fail, but never will his life be in danger . . . only a bruised ego. But, in an instant gratification society their mantra is "I want it and I want it now!" And, when they throw their luck to the fate of the sea gods and head into the unknown fully unprepared and encounter situations far beyond their experience level and personal courage and métier, they must face the wrongness of their actions. Who pays? We all pay in both a monetary sense and in the certain restrictions that will be forthcoming to all who seek to head to sea . . . especially those experienced, well-honed, competent sailors who deserve the right to do so. As the OP's title so aptly states: This is Getting Ridiculous. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 23-07-2014, 10:58   #33
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

Great analogy rognvald.....but I am sure some musician has said..."you are only as good as your last note"
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Old 23-07-2014, 11:16   #34
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

I'd be interested in what you reckon the % of sailors don't know how to heave to.

Given the recurring questions on this and many other sailing forums about "How do i heave to?", I have the feeling it's way higher than we might think for something that should be almost as basic as raising sail.
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Old 23-07-2014, 11:34   #35
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
We live in an entitlement society where personal responsibility is never a factor. As others have mentioned, this will eventually create more restrictions on boats/sailors as the situation worsens. The real problem is that prospective sailors read a few books, buy a boat, equip it will all the indispensable electronic aids that will insulate them from any harm, take a few sails and without any learning curve or real experience head for distant horizons. I believe music provides an excellent analogy. When one begins to study music, they are concerned with technique, sight reading, tone, interpretation and acceptable performance. To introduce a beginning student to a Bach violin concerto is absurdity in its greatest form since the student is not prepared for the performance of such advanced music. He will stumble through the passages with poor tone, poor execution, inconsistent dynamics and will generally fail, but never will his life be in danger . . . only a bruised ego. But, in an instant gratification society their mantra is "I want it and I want it now!" And, when they throw their luck to the fate of the sea gods and head into the unknown fully unprepared and encounter situations far beyond their experience level and personal courage and métier, they must face the wrongness of their actions. Who pays? We all pay in both a monetary sense and in the certain restrictions that will be forthcoming to all who seek to head to sea . . . especially those experienced, well-honed, competent sailors who deserve the right to do so. As the OP's title so aptly states: This is Getting Ridiculous. Good luck and good sailing.




Well said!!...


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Old 23-07-2014, 12:17   #36
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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I'd be interested in what you reckon the % of sailors don't know how to heave .....
The first lesson is to never "heave" over the windard side.....it blows back in your face!
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Old 23-07-2014, 13:45   #37
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

What were the sea conditions at the time...Tuesday night in the Gulf Stream? The boat "Sea Heather" is a sistership to my boat. Wonder what "beset by weather" entails? I always wonder if my years and years on night shift and ability to just stay awake and get stuff done will help me deal with sailing exhaustion. I guess there is only one way to find out.
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Old 23-07-2014, 14:34   #38
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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This couple might want to consider taking up knitting...

Cruising Sailors Rescued by EPIRB Twice in Six Months | Sail Magazine

He seems to have a lot of experience. The weather plays such a common factor in so many of these events.
Dan,

Len, the owner of that boat, is a member here--Bluewaters2812. There was a long thread when he lost his rudder in the Caribbean, and another when his boat went down in the Atlantic--sad story!

Here's a thread he's just started on the loss of his boat, The Blue Pearl.

The Blue Pearl sinking - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 23-07-2014, 15:55   #39
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by DiverChick71 View Post

(...)

I always wonder if my years and years on night shift and ability to just stay awake and get stuff done will help me deal with sailing exhaustion. I guess there is only one way to find out.
Negative.

The trick here is to stay ahead of the game. In other words, do not get to the point of exhaustion.

If you want to do something to this end, read on sleep (deprivation) management techniques. See what works for you, what does not.

Sail with competent crew. Use windvanes. Use APs. Sleep unless you are driving or cooking.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 23-07-2014, 16:10   #40
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
We live in an entitlement society where personal responsibility is never a factor. As others have mentioned, this will eventually create more restrictions on boats/sailors as the situation worsens. The real problem is that prospective sailors read a few books, buy a boat, equip it will all the indispensable electronic aids that will insulate them from any harm, take a few sails and without any learning curve or real experience head for distant horizons. I believe music provides an excellent analogy. When one begins to study music, they are concerned with technique, sight reading, tone, interpretation and acceptable performance. To introduce a beginning student to a Bach violin concerto is absurdity in its greatest form since the student is not prepared for the performance of such advanced music. He will stumble through the passages with poor tone, poor execution, inconsistent dynamics and will generally fail, but never will his life be in danger . . . only a bruised ego. But, in an instant gratification society their mantra is "I want it and I want it now!" And, when they throw their luck to the fate of the sea gods and head into the unknown fully unprepared and encounter situations far beyond their experience level and personal courage and métier, they must face the wrongness of their actions. Who pays? We all pay in both a monetary sense and in the certain restrictions that will be forthcoming to all who seek to head to sea . . . especially those experienced, well-honed, competent sailors who deserve the right to do so. As the OP's title so aptly states: This is Getting Ridiculous. Good luck and good sailing.
Allow me to respond to this, but I qualify this response by stating in advance I am a landlubber in flyover country.

So, is it your contention that anyone who gets out on the water and gets into a situation that is over their heads, regardless of the experience and circumstances involved, deserves to die? If not, then where do you draw the line? And who makes the life-and-death decision about when that line is crossed? I mean, we all vary in degrees of competence, on a variety of scales; physical, intellectual, emotional, etc. My understanding, from reading here, is that the sea is a harsh mistress, and that even the best of sailors can get into situations that risk life and limb. Public services like the Police, Fire Department and the Coast Guard end up saving society money in the long run because the cost of the rescues is less than the cost of the losses. They also support the idea of freedom, because they mitigate the risks of day-to-day life and allow us to focus on the things we do best, rather than to have everyone make mediocre preparations for emergencies that professionals can handle more efficiently.

I would also ask how many trapeze artists you think there would be in the world if no one could afford a net? You seem like the sort of person who would be happier if fewer people were sailing. You have to consider, however, that as the sailing population grows, the costs of equipment fall as the power of mass production takes over. If you think sailing is expensive now, imagine all this stuff being handmade. Without a service like the Coast Guard, the avocation of sailing for pleasure (as opposed to a seagoing profession) would probably become quite a bit less popular, because without them, the risk of undocking at all becomes much higher.

water sailing">Blue water sailing through history has been the province of the most daring and resourceful. But even the best of preparations can encounter conditions that are unmanageable. As someone who lives far from blue water and may never have need of the Coast Guard, I have no problem at all kicking in a few bucks a year to support a service that saves lives and helps the unfortunate, and yes, sometimes the poorly prepared.

Yeah, I can think of several ways my tax dollars get misspent, but the Coast Guard ain't one of 'em.
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Old 23-07-2014, 16:15   #41
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Dan,

Len, the owner of that boat, is a member here--Bluewaters2812. There was a long thread when he lost his rudder in the Caribbean, and another when his boat went down in the Atlantic--sad story!

Here's a thread he's just started on the loss of his boat, The Blue Pearl.

The Blue Pearl sinking - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Thanks Hud. Didn't intend to be critical. Just that having the same type of failure twice is pretty bad luck.
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Old 23-07-2014, 16:36   #42
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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You know, guys,

My feelings are well expressed by two people so far: Ex-Calif and leftbrainstuff.

I was once seasick but not at death's door for 16 days of a 21 day passage. ...And yet, if you keep on vomiting and it can't be controlled, you have a life threatening situation. There is no gender preference for mal de mer. It could as easily be the man who was more seasick than the women. [No thanks for the sexist interpretation, by the way.] Or more frightened. We do not know anything except our own experience (and then only if you're willing to confront yourself), we don't know what happened with these people either. Maybe they had never been seasick before. Maybe, dehydration was an issue approaching medical. Maybe........

Incidentally, I'll put in a plug for offshore racing again, because the peer pressure helps you learn to throw up and "get on with it", an attitude that can see you through many difficulties.

Ann
I agree with Ann here.

Besides, it was probably a CF member on here that told them to "go NOW", they'll learn everything they need to know along the way.
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Old 23-07-2014, 16:55   #43
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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I agree with Ann here.



Besides, it was probably a CF member on here that told them to "go NOW", they'll learn everything they need to know along the way.

Yes,
But if someone tells me to jump, I'm still going to look down first to see where the bottom is
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Old 23-07-2014, 17:15   #44
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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Yes,
But if someone tells me to jump, I'm still going to look down first to see where the bottom is
What a wimp. You are supposed to ride it to the bottom before stepping off.

Quote:
Sail with competent crew. Use windvanes. Use APs. Sleep unless you are driving or cooking.
You left out 'using a Jordan Series Drogue'. All reviews I have read say that deploying the drogue just settles things down within a few minutes of deployment.

Sea sickness can kill you.
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Old 23-07-2014, 17:31   #45
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

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We live in an entitlement society where personal responsibility is never a factor. As others have mentioned, this will eventually create more restrictions on boats/sailors as the situation worsens.
I think entitlement society is apt but also a privileged, wealthy and instantly-self-gratifying society.

I don't think boat ads per se lead people to ocean voyages. Most that I see show plasti-boats in Marinas or harbors.

But I do think the push-button society with gps, phones and all that lead people to believe that risk is negligible and this is "easy." - I think blogs help reinforce this idea.

"We've worked hard, can afford a yacht and now we are comfortable cruising!"

Wow that must be easy! I have no skin in someone else's game. People are gonna do dumb stuff, forever! The cost of rescue, coast guard, blah, blah, blah doesn't worry me. It's part of a massive modern society.

Here is the controversial part - I believe it is time for more oversight. US sailors should be required to pass a basic skills and driving test - yes it won't make better boaters but it is part of the solution. I should be able to know that everyone in harbor has at least been trained to a basic standard.

I don't think it is feasible to regulate Blue Water cruising but if there was an advanced license along the lines of the AYA classes I sure would be compelled to cert and insurance companies would love it. And those that can't currently get insurance may be able to do so if there is a demonstrated competency.

Before the "freedom" folks get to excited, licensing is not restriction - it is (should be a badge of training and competency)

Ok - 2 cents in...
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