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Old 22-07-2014, 16:11   #16
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

Admittedly the glossy photo's in the sailing rags, have lead more then a few folks astray. All you need is a 40' boat with all the gismo's and anybody can sail. Alas Life is never so simple.

Heck a goodly percent of the folks I see can't even anchor right. If the boat's still moving, the anchors not set .

With the currently discussed folks, it could have been a non-emergency medical condition, bad knee, bad back, out of rum, who knows.

We don't know all the facts, so lets just calm down and wait a day or two for the facts to arrive. Stuff happens.
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Old 22-07-2014, 16:26   #17
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

You know, guys,

My feelings are well expressed by two people so far: Ex-Calif and leftbrainstuff.

I was once seasick but not at death's door for 16 days of a 21 day passage. ...And yet, if you keep on vomiting and it can't be controlled, you have a life threatening situation. There is no gender preference for mal de mer. It could as easily be the man who was more seasick than the women. [No thanks for the sexist interpretation, by the way.] Or more frightened. We do not know anything except our own experience (and then only if you're willing to confront yourself), we don't know what happened with these people either. Maybe they had never been seasick before. Maybe, dehydration was an issue approaching medical. Maybe........

Incidentally, I'll put in a plug for offshore racing again, because the peer pressure helps you learn to throw up and "get on with it", an attitude that can see you through many difficulties.

Ann
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Old 22-07-2014, 17:03   #18
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

This kind of stuff is happening all the time, you only hear about a few boats. In just the past year, boats that we know about have been towed into Mexico, Guatemala, Florida, Virginia and Mexico again. Not because they were sea sick though, missing rudders, dead engines & no wind, shipping lanes etc.
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Old 22-07-2014, 17:45   #19
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

While I can buy the "training exercise" theory to a point, it was not a controlled one and it took assetts away from strategic base... when they may have been needed for a REAL emergency.

The only embarrassment is to the sailing couple who have to live with that.

The CG did their job and I hope they give that couple a "special" safety inspection )
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Old 22-07-2014, 17:55   #20
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

I'm happy to stay within the confines of the world's greatest estuary when on a boat. Every time I left its waters on a sailboat, I got sick and wished for death. That was never a problem on a ship, however. In the middle of the vast estuary:

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Old 22-07-2014, 18:00   #21
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

I have risked my life twice and almost lost friends on rescues that were nothing more than dehydration form extreme seasickness that were diagnosed by maritime doctors as appendicitis and required immediate helo evacuation.

You can fly a years worth of rescues for what it costs losing a single helo and crew and the subsequent investigation. Much better a simple assist early in a situation than a critical rescue (phony as it might ultimately be) at the wrong time.

The USCG budgets rescues into it's annual budget and only needs supplemental monies for unusual situations like mass migrations or certain complicated long distance rescues.
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Old 23-07-2014, 04:40   #22
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

This couple might want to consider taking up knitting...

Cruising Sailors Rescued by EPIRB Twice in Six Months | Sail Magazine

He seems to have a lot of experience. The weather plays such a common factor in so many of these events.
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Old 23-07-2014, 04:58   #23
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

I have mixed feelings on this. So many people assume the CG Have to respond to every distress call and nothing , nothing is further from the truth. I have listened in while they refused to go out to a vessel 30 miles out as a man was having a heart attack ( he died), A pregnant women was bleeding profusely(probably lost the baby) and while maybe they were right in their assumption there was nothing they could, we also sat and listened to a 40+ fishing vessel calling in distress activating an epirb and begging for cg help as their pumps were overwhelmed and their boat was sinking, 13 miles EnE of key west . Sandy was over the Bahamas the weather was indeed sh.t. they should not have been where they were, hawk channel had 4+Footers in it, we listened to the capt and crew beg and plead for assistance and it took the CG over 2hours to "provide assistance" to which their sad final transmission "arrived at epirb location debris field found any vessels in the area please keep a lookout for survivors. It is funny how certain unsuccessful "rescues" dont find their way into their website listings of rescues.

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Old 23-07-2014, 05:31   #24
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
I have mixed feelings on this. So many people assume the CG Have to respond to every distress call and nothing , nothing is further from the truth. I have listened in while they refused to go out to a vessel 30 miles out as a man was having a heart attack ( he died), A pregnant women was bleeding profusely(probably lost the baby) and while maybe they were right in their assumption there was nothing they could, we also sat and listened to a 40+ fishing vessel calling in distress activating an epirb and begging for cg help as their pumps were overwhelmed and their boat was sinking, 13 miles EnE of key west . Sandy was over the Bahamas the weather was indeed sh.t. they should not have been where they were, hawk channel had 4+Footers in it, we listened to the capt and crew beg and plead for assistance and it took the CG over 2hours to "provide assistance" to which their sad final transmission "arrived at epirb location debris field found any vessels in the area please keep a lookout for survivors. It is funny how certain unsuccessful "rescues" dont find their way into their website listings of rescues.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
The USCG did "something" either by radio, etc...

Ever since I joined in 1977 and retired...and still follow very closely the USCG's activities....those cases must have "had more to the story"....than just not responding. The USCG ,usually in a life threatening situation sends some kind of resource...whatever is appropriate for the situation..even if the best they can do is airwaves. It is VERY rarely only that.

The number one reason the USCG doesn't respond to a case that I can think of...it's because it is in another nation's territorial waters and permission to help hasn't been granted yet.
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Old 23-07-2014, 05:43   #25
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

As terrible as it is Firemen apparently sometimes arrive on scene, can hear the screams, but can do nothing as going in would be sure death for the Firemen.
I can only imagine it is a terrible thing, and preys on their minds for years, but sometimes not every situation is salvageable.
I do not want to be the person who has to make the decision to abandon people to their almost certain death, in order to prevent the almost certain death of the rescuers, but it is a decision that has to be made occasionally, and I'm sure as with all decisions, sometimes mistakes are made, who among us is 100% on what the weather will do?
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Old 23-07-2014, 06:04   #26
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pirate Re: This is getting ridiculous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
You know, guys,

My feelings are well expressed by two people so far: Ex-Calif and leftbrainstuff.

I was once seasick but not at death's door for 16 days of a 21 day passage. ...And yet, if you keep on vomiting and it can't be controlled, you have a life threatening situation. There is no gender preference for mal de mer. It could as easily be the man who was more seasick than the women. [No thanks for the sexist interpretation, by the way.] Or more frightened. We do not know anything except our own experience (and then only if you're willing to confront yourself), we don't know what happened with these people either. Maybe they had never been seasick before. Maybe, dehydration was an issue approaching medical. Maybe........

Incidentally, I'll put in a plug for offshore racing again, because the peer pressure helps you learn to throw up and "get on with it", an attitude that can see you through many difficulties.

Ann
+A1 Ann..
That's why I'm a firm believer in the passive approach.. heave to and save the strength for when its really needed.. after that all that's to do is the occasional look around..
My 'Get over it/Get on with it' was in the Navy.. still get queasy now and then..
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Old 23-07-2014, 06:35   #27
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The USCG did "something" either by radio, etc...

Ever since I joined in 1977 and retired...and still follow very closely the USCG's activities....those cases must have "had more to the story"....than just not responding. The USCG ,usually in a life threatening situation sends some kind of resource...whatever is appropriate for the situation..even if the best they can do is airwaves. It is VERY rarely only that.

The number one reason the USCG doesn't respond to a case that I can think of...it's because it is in another nation's territorial waters and permission to help hasn't been granted yet.
Sorry that just not right. They assess the situation, ( and probabaility of success), ask a dozen questions and if there is nothing they can really do i.e. the guy having a heart attack was either goin gto survive or die, their assistance wasnt going to make a difference, they do nothing , well maybe talk to them via the radio etc.
In the case of this sinking commercial vessel, due to winds the helicopter could not go out, and during all the questioning it seemed apparent the CG really didnt want to send a boat out in 50+knot winds into a very rough area of water. We were approx 9 miles west of the vessel in distress and could not assist as we had our hands full where we were. We were able to listen in sadly as the captain in the end urged begged and pleaded for help, from a cg station relatively close by. They did eventually send help nearly 2 hours too late. There were no survivors. make of it what you will,,,WE also had the very eye opening opportunity to come across a 23 yr old wave runner victim, he had jumped a wake and hit his head and was in the water unconscious with a very weak pulse. The CG responded very quickly, about 10 minutes. dropped as diver, lowered a basket, raised the basket with their diver in it, radioing us the victim was deceased and their was nothing they could do. 2 of our crew verified he had a pulse though weak. Our one crew continued CPR until the Sherrifs boat and FWC, and a Sheriffs boat came and took our crew and the Victim to shore, to meet an ambulance. I do recall the CG making the statement that we provide assistance to get people out of dangerous situations we do not provide life saving medical procedures. Some of our crew were extremely dissappointed in how this was handled. The victim died en route to the hospital and was non revivable. had he been airlifted and taken to the hospital 6 miles away it could have had a different ending. We have 6 witnesses to this event.

I respect and am not knocking the CG, they have their protocals. They are a valuable asset, but I would not want my life or my crews to be solely dependant on their service for survival.
Moral of all this, When you boat, whether offshore or near shore you need to be self reliant, be smart, boat safe, carry a first aid kit, remain calm and carry any emergency supplies you may need, and again be smart. You may have no one to assist you in an emergency,

Had no one been there to help the seasick tired sailors, maybe they would have survived, maybe not. There ship was not sinking..
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Old 23-07-2014, 06:38   #28
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
As terrible as it is Firemen apparently sometimes arrive on scene, can hear the screams, but can do nothing as going in would be sure death for the Firemen.
I can only imagine it is a terrible thing, and preys on their minds for years, but sometimes not every situation is salvageable.
I do not want to be the person who has to make the decision to abandon people to their almost certain death, in order to prevent the almost certain death of the rescuers, but it is a decision that has to be made occasionally, and I'm sure as with all decisions, sometimes mistakes are made, who among us is 100% on what the weather will do?
Good points and having arrived first on scene of a burning house with no protective gear (not a fireman)...was a big decision not to go into just a smokey house...let alone one on flames. Just not my bag...now give me a helo and a good storm...

Good training, experience and professionalism make calling the decision to terminate a search or halt a sortie easier. There is no preparation one gets to tell a mother you are doing so for her 5 year old. Bite the lip and move on.

The difference with the burning building and USCG rescues is there almost NEVER a USCG case that can be compared to a burning building.

The news is full of stories of the USCG of successful rescues in hurricanes (Bounty, Satori, etc)...some unsuccessful but the sortie was launched.

I 've been ion both sides of the wavering fence...one time didn't launch because of severe icing and a clam boat rolled over. But at the time the boat was overdue with no mayday...so an 82 foot cutter was dispatched. Had a mayday with location been issued, I probably would have launched despite the prohibition of flying in even mild icing. But a great case of it didn't matter as they were trapped inside and died in minutes. Have been in fire too, rotor blades and fuel tanks melted.

It usually takes a lot for the USCG not to try something...it's in the collective genes....that's why there usually no standouts in that crowd...too many good ones.
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Old 23-07-2014, 06:55   #29
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Re: This is getting ridiculous

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
Sorry that just not right. They assess the situation, ( and probabaility of success), ask a dozen questions and if there is nothing they can really do i.e. the guy having a heart attack was either goin gto survive or die, their assistance wasnt going to make a difference, they do nothing , well maybe talk to them via the radio etc.
In the case of this sinking commercial vessel, due to winds the helicopter could not go out, and during all the questioning it seemed apparent the CG really didnt want to send a boat out in 50+knot winds into a very rough area of water. We were approx 9 miles west of the vessel in distress and could not assist as we had our hands full where we were. We were able to listen in sadly as the captain in the end urged begged and pleaded for help, from a cg station relatively close by. They did eventually send help nearly 2 hours too late. There were no survivors. make of it what you will,,,WE also had the very eye opening opportunity to come across a 23 yr old wave runner victim, he had jumped a wake and hit his head and was in the water unconscious with a very weak pulse. The CG responded very quickly, about 10 minutes. dropped as diver, lowered a basket, raised the basket with their diver in it, radioing us the victim was deceased and their was nothing they could do. 2 of our crew verified he had a pulse though weak. Our one crew continued CPR until the Sherrifs boat and FWC, and a Sheriffs boat came and took our crew and the Victim to shore, to meet an ambulance. I do recall the CG making the statement that we provide assistance to get people out of dangerous situations we do not provide life saving medical procedures. Some of our crew were extremely dissappointed in how this was handled. The victim died en route to the hospital and was non revivable. had he been airlifted and taken to the hospital 6 miles away it could have had a different ending. We have 6 witnesses to this event.

I respect and am not knocking the CG, they have their protocals. They are a valuable asset, but I would not want my life or my crews to be solely dependant on their service for survival.
Moral of all this, When you boat, whether offshore or near shore you need to be self reliant, be smart, boat safe, carry a first aid kit, remain calm and carry any emergency supplies you may need, and again be smart. You may have no one to assist you in an emergency,

Had no one been there to help the seasick tired sailors, maybe they would have survived, maybe not. There ship was not sinking..
I agree you shouldn't depend on them or anyone else when going to sea.

I just believe there's more to your stories as none of them go with USCG protocols...especially pronouncing someone deceased...that's beat into every Coastie...they don't get to make that call...

The only time truly unusual protocols are invented or ignored is in real crisis where too many rescues are happening and triage is necessary. Like the evacuation of people after Hurricane Katrina...

Now out of this I guess some protocols were bent...but who wouldn't..

"Of the estimated 60,000 people that needed to be rescued from rooftops and flooded homes, Coast Guardsmen saved more than 33,500, including rescuing from peril 24,135 lives and evacuating 9,409 medical patients to safety. The rescue and the response efforts were some of the largest in Coast Guard history, involving units from every district. Over 5,600 Coast Guardsmen participated in the Coast Guard's response efforts."

U.S. Coast Guard & Hurricane Katrina, Historical Index
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Old 23-07-2014, 07:51   #30
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Re: This is Getting Ridiculous

Just because...

Mother Nature, The Sea Gods, and The Ocean are NOT! your friends.
Sailing is a dangerous occupation. Always has been and always will be.
Big, shiny, expensive, and all the latest gear, will not save your heiney in a pinch.
The perception of an emergency situation is directly related to experience.
It's not like in the brochures...

Having said that, one of the previous comments about the "glossy magazines" promoting cruising as easy and accessible as long as you buy all the "right" stuff is unfortunately all too true. And eventually it may come back to bite experienced cruisers on the afore mentioned heiney. At least in US waters we could get legislated out of existence. I have been carrying an EPIRB since '97 and have never once come close to pulling it. Maybe once I have to step UP into the liferaft...

The referenced report is sort of vague... 130 miles SE of chucktown is a big radius, but would seem to me that sea-sick and exhausted I might have enough sea room to heave-to for 24-36 hrs and recover enough to continue making passage.

Just sayin' ...
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