T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So.... now we're discussing two dipsticks?

Indeed! You can't really have a collision without almighty screwups on both bridges.

[PangurBan]

Originally Posted by SoFla Sailor

Funny you should mention it as the captain of the ferry made no attempt to avoid the collision. This and the fact he wasn't constricted to a deep water channel means he also failed in his responsibility to avoid the collision. I think they are both at fault.

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[PangurBan]

Originally Posted by SoFla Sailor

Funny you should mention it as the captain of the ferry made no attempt to avoid the collision. This and the fact he wasn't constricted to a deep water channel means he also failed in his responsibility to avoid the collision. I think they are both at fault.

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The first COLREGS course I did had the instructor commencing with the following:
" Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong "


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[four winds]

So let's see.... at 32 feet if I bump into a... say.... 50+ foot sailboat....it's all my fault.

Good to know. I'll file that in my internet seamanship rule book.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by PangurBan

The first COLREGS course I did had the instructor commencing with the following:
" Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong "


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I imagine that ferry isn't able to make quick turns or speed changes. More than likely the ferry captain was thinking "That guy in that little sailboat isn't dumb enough to steer right into this ferry."

Turns out he was wrong.

[El Pinguino]

From the ferry skipper's point of view....
Stuff probably started to go pear shaped about 5 seconds before the video starts.
We have no idea what was to port but an alteration to port wasn't going to achieve anything.
Go faster? Not going to happen.
Bearing is opening.... yacht is going to pass astern...maybe... well it almost did... so the ferry stopping engines or going astern isn't going to change anything... esp in the time available.
I don't think any enquiry ( I doubt if there will be one for such a minor incident ) would attach any blame whatsoever to the ferry skipper.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... going by the pics posted of the approaching front the skipper did have notice that things were going to get 'interesting'. Maybe not keeping a good lookout astern... amazing how many people don't.

Getting rid of the sails.... furl the jib while still running DDW.... then ( in this case ) hard a starboard... hang on tight ( if the front is already on you ) ... haul in main sheet once across the wind... drop main. Not so easy on Sydney Harbour with boats, ferries and bricks all over the place.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by PangurBan

The first COLREGS course I did had the instructor commencing with the following:
" Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong "


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

How does that relate to this thread, exactly?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

From the ferry skipper's point of view....
Stuff probably started to go pear shaped about 5 seconds before the video starts.
We have no idea what was to port but an alteration to port wasn't going to achieve anything.
Go faster? Not going to happen.
Bearing is opening.... yacht is going to pass astern...maybe... well it almost did... so the ferry stopping engines or going astern isn't going to change anything... esp in the time available.
I don't think any enquiry ( I doubt if there will be one for such a minor incident ) would attach any blame whatsoever to the ferry skipper.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... going by the pics posted of the approaching front the skipper did have notice that things were going to get 'interesting'. Maybe not keeping a good lookout astern... amazing how many people don't.

Getting rid of the sails.... furl the jib while still running DDW.... then ( in this case ) hard a starboard... hang on tight ( if the front is already on you ) ... haul in main sheet once across the wind... drop main. Not so easy on Sydney Harbour with boats, ferries and bricks all over the place.

Well, we can't know -- none of us was there. It could be that there was simply nothing he could do. But one thing we do know for sure -- he will have to prove that under the fierce glare of the admiralty judge, if it goes to court.

He will be charged for two things -- failure to keep a watch under Rule 5 -- failure to perceive that there was a collision imminent. And violation of his obligation under Rule 17(b) to take action sufficient to avoid a collision, as soon as it is clear that the give-way vessel -- we presume the sailboat was obligated to stay out of the way of the ferry -- has not taken action itself sufficient to prevent the collision.


People stuck with land and road concepts have trouble understanding that there is simply no such thing as "right of way" at sea. No one ever -- ever! -- has the right to just sail along and assume that the other vessel is solely responsible for avoiding the accident. This is radically different from being on the road. At sea, BOTH skippers are responsible for avoiding the accident. When an accident happens, there is a strong presumption that BOTH skippers violated the rules.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by carstenb

NO he was going DDW - notice that his spinnaker pole is set - he was running butterfly with the main to one side and genua poled out other. Damn if I know how he got his genua loose from the pole. But yes, the genua is disintergrating.

Looks like a lot of wind - so I agree - way overcanvassed for that day

Looks to me like the wind is on his beam at the time of the collision. Sheets are way eased presumably trying to slow down enough to miss the ferry?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, we can't know -- none of us was there. It could be that there was simply nothing he could do. But one thing we do know for sure -- he will have to prove that under the fierce glare of the admiralty judge, if it goes to court.

He will be charged for two things -- failure to keep a watch under Rule 5 -- failure to perceive that there was a collision imminent. And violation of his obligation under Rule 17(b) to take action sufficient to avoid a collision, as soon as it is clear that the give-way vessel -- we presume the sailboat was obligated to stay out of the way of the ferry -- has not taken action itself sufficient to prevent the collision.


People stuck with land and road concepts have trouble understanding that there is simply no such thing as "right of way" at sea. No one ever -- ever! -- has the right to just sail along and assume that the other vessel is solely responsible for avoiding the accident. This is radically different from being on the road. At sea, BOTH skippers are responsible for avoiding the accident. When an accident happens, there is a strong presumption that BOTH skippers violated the rules.

True, but Sydney harbour is a special case. The Ferries have absolute right of way. If you hit a ferry, you're at fault.

[Weyalan]

For what it is worth, the Sydney ferries are exempt from the COLREGs insofar as local statute removes their obligation way to sail. Explicitly, sailboats have an obligation to keep clear of Sydney Ferries.

Oops, I just noticed 44cat posted exactly the same, above...

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by savoir

I do hope all you armchair experts realize that a 50 knot front blew through Sydney that day. Oh how I would love to line each of you up and send you out into 50 for the first time. It looked like this.


Attachment 98325

Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.

[goat]

I saw this today on the Thetis Island marina website and it seemed apropos;

Please note the routes used by BC Ferries, which are annotated on Canadian Hydrographic charts. Give the ferry the right-of-way, and do it early with a clear and unambiguous turn to show them you will remain clear. The ferry is both constrained by its draft, and limited in it’s ability to maneuver, which de-facto gives it the right of way over pleasure craft regardless of their relative position, or whether it is power or sail. Remember they are working; make their job easier by staying well clear of their path, and always passing astern of them. One other small incentive; there will be an audience on each and every ferry looking at your vessel and how it is handled.
Impress them.


goat

[Weyalan]

Originally Posted by goat

I saw this today on the Thetis Island marina website and it seemed apropos;

Please note the routes used by BC Ferries, which are annotated on Canadian Hydrographic charts. Give the ferry the right-of-way, and do it early with a clear and unambiguous turn to show them you will remain clear. The ferry is both constrained by its draft, and limited in it’s ability to maneuver, which de-facto gives it the right of way over pleasure craft regardless of their relative position, or whether it is power or sail. Remember they are working; make their job easier by staying well clear of their path, and always passing astern of them. One other small incentive; there will be an audience on each and every ferry looking at your vessel and how it is handled.
Impress them.


goat

The BC ferries are very large and are, indeed, constrained by draft and manouverability. The Sydney ferries are not large, are relatively manouverable and furthermore are not required to give way to sailboats. I'm not sure that your example is as "apropos" as you think...

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.

Where'd the photo come from? That's not a squall. It's a gust front. Deadly. Looks to be passing which is fortunate for whoever took the picture.