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Old 07-03-2015, 05:18   #106
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You're assuming he has the sails set correctly, but obviously they aren't. The wind is definitely on his beam, or very close to it. The waves and spray show it clearly.

He might have dumped his sheets to try to stop the boat. To me, he could easily have turned to port and gone behind the ferry. No idea why he didn't.
I disagree with this. Just moments before he hits you can see the direction of wind in the main sail and he's going ddw. You can't always tell the direction of the wind by wave direction, especially in sustained gusts.

My bet is he had the rudder hard to port but the strength of the wind, 50+ knots in a full sail the rudder just didn't respond at all. I've had this happen in 40knots but thankfully I was able to turn the opposite and just let the wind have it temporarily. He Cleary didn't have the luxury of turning to starboard.

For those true blue arm chair sailors calling him names, in a sudden event like this it could happen to any of us. Pride just won't let us all admit it.
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Old 07-03-2015, 11:42   #107
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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I disagree with this. Just moments before he hits you can see the direction of wind in the main sail and he's going ddw..


The whole leech of the main is flapping around like crazy, and look at the way the way the headsail is flapping around.

In this case the wave and wind direction are in sync.




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Old 07-03-2015, 12:11   #108
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

I think the wind direction and stuff was nailed in the first dozen posts.
Definately has the wind on the beam.
A probable scenario... running DDW with the genoa poled out to stbd, maybe with a preventer on the main. Start furling jib, someone loses their grip on the furling line, genoa backwinds and unfurls in total, maybe the line on the furler has jammed? Boat now takes herself away on a reach.... wont turn into wind cos flogging genoa is holding bow down, wont turn off the wind cos main is trying to bring her up....
He was probably lucky that he hit the ferry...if she had responded to her helm there would have been a good chance of a crash gybe.

If you look at the chart you will see that the probable maximum run since things went pearshaped was 2 cables... at 6 knots = 2 minutes. Not a lot of time to sort yourself out.

Been there done most of this, not all at the same time mind you - and haven't hit a ferry ....yet.
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Old 07-03-2015, 15:16   #109
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

I'm a little surprised by now that someone on CF hasn't heard from the skipper himself what happened. Being in Sydney he's (or she) is bound to be connected in some way with a marina or yacht club.

But in any case they would not have deliberately tried to hit a damned big ferry in Sydney harbour and would have been trying to stop that happening. So there was clearly something that was not responding and didn't have time to sort it out.
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Old 07-03-2015, 16:04   #110
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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I'm a little surprised by now that someone on CF hasn't heard from the skipper himself what happened. Being in Sydney he's (or she) is bound to be connected in some way with a marina or yacht club.

But in any case they would not have deliberately tried to hit a damned big ferry in Sydney harbour and would have been trying to stop that happening. So there was clearly something that was not responding and didn't have time to sort it out.
I already explained - he had no directional control at all. He could not head up, that genoa flogging was turning him down wind. He could not head further downwind, that main was filling and turning him up wind. Only choice to reduce sail. Could not get main down as it was jammed against the stays and spreaders, could not furl genoa as far too much load on it.

Only way out would have been to dump the genoa haliard and end up with the genoa in the water, which would allow the boat to head up enough to get in a position where he could get the main down.

However, probably everything happened too fast for the poor guy.
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Old 07-03-2015, 16:10   #111
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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I already explained - he had no directional control at all. He could not head up, that genoa flogging was turning him down wind. He could not head further downwind, that main was filling and turning him up wind. Only choice to reduce sail. Could not get main down as it was jammed against the stays and spreaders, could not furl genoa as far too much load on it.

Only way out would have been to dump the genoa haliard and end up with the genoa in the water, which would allow the boat to head up enough to get in a position where he could get the main down.

However, probably everything happened too fast for the poor guy.
Thank you, had not realised you had information from the horses mouth. Thought you were just guessing like he rest of us. That pretty much answers it then.
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Old 07-03-2015, 17:37   #112
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

The horse's jaw dropped and brain froze at some point ... just saying, not blaming the horse. The video is pretty much showing what was happening and might be more objective than captain's impression under stress.

He could not head up, that genoa flogging was turning him down wind. He could not head further downwind, that main was filling and turning him up wind.

This is what I am seeing as well. The only difference of opinion is how the severely limited steering attempts contributed to the end result.

Looks to me that if he would let the boat go where it wanted with the sails as they were some 15 seconds earlier, the boat would turn a little downwind, as it did just seconds before the impact. Maybe enough to miss the ferry by a smidgen, maybe not.
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Old 07-03-2015, 17:37   #113
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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actually Dockhead, at least in this part of the world, it is the same as driving a car, it's just very few seem to understand the rule. Even in driving a car, the driver has an obligation in law to avoid an accident. The classic senario is getting collected when running a green traffic light and then saying, 'I saw him coming but I had right of way'.
It is true that drivers with the right of way have certain obligations to avoid accidents, but that does not mean being a stand-on vessel and having the right of way are the same thing. They are in fact totally different, and it's important to understand those differences. I'll start a separate thread on it when I have time.
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Old 07-03-2015, 18:12   #114
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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I already explained - he had no directional control at all. He could not head up, that genoa flogging was turning him down wind. He could not head further downwind, that main was filling and turning him up wind. Only choice to reduce sail. Could not get main down as it was jammed against the stays and spreaders, could not furl genoa as far too much load on it.

Only way out would have been to dump the genoa haliard and end up with the genoa in the water, which would allow the boat to head up enough to get in a position where he could get the main down.

However, probably everything happened too fast for the poor guy.
What does a flogging genoa have to do with not being able to head up? If it was sheeted in and filled, possibly, but flogging like in the video, not so much. The force generated by a flogging genoa would be negligible compared with a filled mainsail. All he had to do was to sheet in his main a little and he would have headed up without even turning the wheel. Possibly he couldn't sheet in the main because previously, when he was running downwind (extended whisker pole), he rigged a preventer on the the main, and since he didn't think he had time to detach the preventer, he committed to ducking the ferry, but then he couldn't go low enough to do that because of weather helm, even with both sails flogging. By the time he realized that, he didn't have time to change anything and as you say, everything was happening just too fast for him. Of course it's fun to speculate but it would be very nice to hear from the sailboats helmsman to tell us just what DID happen that caused him to be unable to avoid crashing into the ferry, something I'm sure he would have chosen to avoid if he could have.
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Old 07-03-2015, 18:34   #115
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

You guys are nuts...

He is clearly in irons which is why he can't head up or down or just levitate the boat over the ferry.

You can see clearly the Genoa is furled and the main sail is in the sail bag under the starboard lazarette. I spoke to the skipper at length and he is not from Sydney and didn't know he wasn't' supposed to smash into a ferry. I'd let him talk to you but he beamed back up to the starship enterprise and is on his way to the nebulon galaxy to join the nebulon cruisers rally.

In fact the sailboat is not moving at all. The ferry is moving sideways under bow and stern thruster and clearly fouled the sailboat on purpose. That's why the skipper is looking for his read protest flag.

(BTW - 30% of Americans think OJ didn't do it and that Michael Jackson was not a pedophile - The internet - gotta love it)
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Old 07-03-2015, 19:52   #116
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I disagree with this. Just moments before he hits you can see the direction of wind in the main sail and he's going ddw.
It amazes me that you could watch the video and think that boat is going DDW! Why would the mainsail be flogging like that if it was DDW?!?!

It wouldn't! It COULDN'T!

And if he WAS running DDW, he could simply have turned to starboard. In fact, if he was running DDW in 50 knots, with full main out to port, he'd probably find it almost impossible NOT to turn to starboard!
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Old 07-03-2015, 20:02   #117
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

And if he WAS running DDW, he could simply have turned to starboard. In fact, if he was running DDW in 50 knots, with full main out to port, he'd probably find it almost impossible NOT to turn to starboard!
If he had been DDW at the time of the video ( which he wasn't) that hat wouldn't have blown overboard ( which it did)

and also

The ferry was heading south, the boat was heading east.... so it would have been a Westerly Buster ( I hope I never meet one of them ) for her to be DDW which it wasn't.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:43   #118
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Someone stated that ferries have the "absolute right of way". This is false. Even without the word "absolute". Ferries displaying the proper shapes and lights have "priority". A very different concept.
Youre right, there is no such thing as "right of way" on the water.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:51   #119
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

:dead horsebeat:
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:52   #120
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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What does a flogging genoa have to do with not being able to head up? If it was sheeted in and filled, possibly, but flogging like in the video, not so much. The force generated by a flogging genoa would be negligible compared with a filled mainsail. All he had to do was to sheet in his main a little and he would have headed up without even turning the wheel. Possibly he couldn't sheet in the main because previously, when he was running downwind (extended whisker pole), he rigged a preventer on the the main, and since he didn't think he had time to detach the preventer, he committed to ducking the ferry, but then he couldn't go low enough to do that because of weather helm, even with both sails flogging. By the time he realized that, he didn't have time to change anything and as you say, everything was happening just too fast for him. Of course it's fun to speculate but it would be very nice to hear from the sailboats helmsman to tell us just what DID happen that caused him to be unable to avoid crashing into the ferry, something I'm sure he would have chosen to avoid if he could have.
Clearly you have never had a flogging genoa in 40 knots of wind. If you had, you would understand the huge amount of force that creates.
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