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Old 05-03-2015, 21:36   #76
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
The BC ferries are very large and are, indeed, constrained by draft and manouverability. The Sydney ferries are not large, are relatively manouverable and furthermore are not required to give way to sailboats. I'm not sure that your example is as "apropos" as you think...
It was actually the last sentence about the audience that I was referring to. Sailing out of Nanaimo for a few years teaches one a lot about right of 'weight'.

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Old 05-03-2015, 21:45   #77
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Lol. Gotcha. Queen of Nanaimo Rules the Waves!
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Old 05-03-2015, 23:33   #78
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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BTW, are those REVA clothes pegs? I reckon they are brilliant, good for up to at least 30 knots.
You've got a bloody good eye!
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Old 05-03-2015, 23:41   #79
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

The impression the boat behavior made on me is that the sailor was trying to go up wind (from 5 to 15 sec in the video, probably started earlier) but the boat just did not want to budge with that amount of sail, level of heel and and waves leading to compromised steering. He gave up trying somewhere around 16 sec, and the boat seemed to relax, slow down a bit and turn down wind just before the impact.
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Old 06-03-2015, 01:24   #80
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Hey, guys,

Post #37 and 74 by Cruising Cat 44, show a roll cloud, usually a HUGE WARNING, if you understand that, then you do as he did, reduce sail, and wait for the kerfuffle to pass.

Just if you haven't seen that before, go back and take a good look: it's one of nature's warnings to a prudent sailor.

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Old 06-03-2015, 02:32   #81
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongleur View Post
Looking at the wind waves, the sailboat was
on a beam reach.
Thank you for that. If you can't get your head around this guy being on a beam reach watch the video again and look at the frame I have attached.

Jeez we are all like a bunch of school kids looking at a car crash.

Also - prior to overdeveloping (indicated by rain hitting the ground) a thunderstorm "sucks" in wind through its center. The cloud is on his port quarter and is in the process of starting to rain. It is sucking in pretty good. In fact a couple of minutes before, when he presumably was going downwind it was probably sucking even harder.

Shortly after this I bet the wind reversed and this guy probably totally got surprised when the boat tacked with out a heading change.

If you don't believe this happens, go out sailing in thunderstorms and find out. It's good stuff to know and experience.


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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
From the ferry skipper's point of view....
Stuff probably started to go pear shaped about 5 seconds before the video starts.
We have no idea what was to port but an alteration to port wasn't going to achieve anything.

<snip>

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... going by the pics posted of the approaching front the skipper did have notice that things were going to get 'interesting'. Maybe not keeping a good lookout astern... amazing how many people don't.
Heck yeah... That's why video is a poor indicator of evidence.

- When did the sailboat head up - i.e. create the crossing situation? Could have been seconds prior to the start of the clip?
- What was to port of the ferry? Could he have caused a collision?
- In ferry boat vs. sailboat ferry boat always wins. What if he had crash maneuvered and people fell over on the ferry? Who liable for passenger injury.

The ferry skipper could have thought, "Hell, I can't get out of this idiots way, he is clearly in trouble so I'll start blasting my horn, but wait a minute, he ain't going under the bow, lucky bastard, let's see if he hits me square amidships he's flocked and might sink but now he just might clear the stern. I wonder what Mary's making for dinner tonight? Damn, someone lost a hat..."

In fact here is another "theory" - Boat blasting downwind, headed for the storm, Skipper thinks, "I gotta bail outta this", Sees ferry, thinks, "I have room to starboard to get a 180 in and go head to wind."

Turn to port not an option because that would create on hell of a shitty gybe.

Gets half way through the maneuver, maybe broached once already and says, "Crap. Ain't doin' that anymore. Maybe I'll squeeze behind this guy."

Still at fault. Still a series of bad decisions, but I wasn't there so I ain't second guessing him until he talks.
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:35   #82
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
Hey Armchair Lawyers. I will throw this one in.

Was the yacht NUC prior to impact? Or perhaps RAM? While she was not displaying shapes, it is obvious that she was having difficulty.
Given the circumstances, for once a Sydney ferry may actually be in the wrong.
(Just so you know, Sydney Ferries are above yachts on the Stand On vs Burdened Vessel food chain.)
I will heat up the pop corn. Whats your thoughts?
No, It can't be RAM since the RAM connotation refers to boats that are retricted by the nature of their work. These classifications are predicable and listed in Rule 3. The sailboat is not RAM due to the nature of her work, so we can safely eliminate the RAM connotation.

NUC might be different story, however. NUC is defined as (source: Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road), The Rule 3 definition of a "vessel not under command" is that of a vessel "unable to maneuver as required" of ordinary vessels because of "exceptional circumstance."

The sailboat, at first glance would seemingly fall under this classification, however, Rule 27 further states:

A vessel not under command has usually suffered a disability, which is not easy to predict or classify. An example would be a vessel with a disabled rudder.

Now the sailboat has actually not suffered a disability. The sailor could have cut his mainsail away and thereby restored command of the vessel (or perhaps started his engine in reverse, given it full power and gotten his speed down to where a hard turn to starboard would not have been a major issue.

Note also, that while the helmsman may have thought, he had lost command of the vessel - this is not actually true - he still had steerage and could have, albeit with some risk, have maneuvered himself out of the situation.

So the answer is "no" neither RAM nor NUC are pertinent to this case.
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:38   #83
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Thank you for that. If you can't get your head around this guy being on a beam reach watch the video again and look at the frame I have attached.

Jeez we are all like a bunch of school kids looking at a car crash.

Also - prior to overdeveloping (indicated by rain hitting the ground) a thunderstorm "sucks" in wind through its center. The cloud is on his port quarter and is in the process of starting to rain. It is sucking in pretty good. In fact a couple of minutes before, when he presumably was going downwind it was probably sucking even harder.

Shortly after this I bet the wind reversed and this guy probably totally got surprised when the boat tacked with out a heading change.

If you don't believe this happens, go out sailing in thunderstorms and find out. It's good stuff to know and experience.




Heck yeah... That's why video is a poor indicator of evidence.

- When did the sailboat head up - i.e. create the crossing situation? Could have been seconds prior to the start of the clip?
- What was to port of the ferry? Could he have caused a collision?
- In ferry boat vs. sailboat ferry boat always wins. What if he had crash maneuvered and people fell over on the ferry? Who liable for passenger injury.

The ferry skipper could have thought, "Hell, I can't get out of this idiots way, he is clearly in trouble so I'll start blasting my horn, but wait a minute, he ain't going under the bow, lucky bastard, let's see if he hits me square amidships he's flocked and might sink but now he just might clear the stern. I wonder what Mary's making for dinner tonight? Damn, someone lost a hat..."
No, he's not on a beam reach. Notice that his sail is a full right angles to the boat and pressed hard on the spreader - sorry he's DDW or something very close. Looking at the full video, you'll see his forsail flappng around. Were he on a beam reach, his forsail sould have stayed to one side
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:47   #84
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

He may not be on a beam reach but the wind is on his beam........

NUC? 1 minute... 2 minutes max from 'oops' to 'oh ****!'

'I say Betty ... be so good as to hoist two black balls .....'

'Can't find em Bruce..'

'Oh , then use the two brown ones in me undies, don't think I will have any other use for them this evening.....'

Time frame , chaps, time frame.... 1 minute , maybe two at best....

It was going to take a while longer than that to sort things, get rid of jib, harden main, regain steerage...oops ... just hit the bricks on the far side....
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:07   #85
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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No, he's not on a beam reach. Notice that his sail is a full right angles to the boat and pressed hard on the spreader - sorry he's DDW or something very close. Looking at the full video, you'll see his forsail flappng around. Were he on a beam reach, his forsail sould have stayed to one side
Well if you define point of sail by how the sail is set, he is on no point of sail. He is technically out of control.

The wind is definitely on his starboard beam. The spray in that frame I posted blows straight across the boat!

Both sails are flogging, if he was going DDW the main sail would stay full.

The reason he has propulsion is that as you state, the boom is against the stay and the main is filling and dumping rapidly. Note the moment he hits the ferry, when the boat is stopped the main fills hard and takes shape.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:34   #86
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I took the picture, just outside of Sydney. It didn't miss us either. But we dropped the mainsail just after taking the photo, and reduced the headsail down to not much, and sailed right through. Pretty windy, we saw 54 knots peak IIRC, but the wind and rain only lasted 1/2 hour or so.

More or less a normal Sydney "Southerly Buster", you usually get a couple of them in a summer.
Sydney is great for practising ocean sailing. Never understood why so many people inside harbour, and so few outside, when sometimes sailing condition out there are just unbelievably great and 5 boats enjoying them

and other 3000 squeezed in harbour.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:44   #87
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

If he was dead down wind I could see where he was in a pickle and couldn't quickly round up without risking a knockdown. But since he's already on a beam reach and the jib sheet is blown, it seems to me that he could pretty easily round up just by pulling in the main sheet a bit. Hard to understand why he didn't do that. I'd guess he realized he couldn't pass in front of the ferry so decided to blow the sheets in order to slow down or turn downwind to pass behind ferry, but once he'd blown the sheets, especially without any pressure on the jib at all, he couldn't turn down, at least not enough. But I don't understand why he didn't turn up and stop, or even tack. If he was dead down wind it's a whole different scenario but it really doesn't look that way to me.

BTW, I'm in the beam reach camp because you can see the whitecaps are parallel to the sailboat, and while the jib is certainly flogging horribly, it's all happening on the port side of the sailboat.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:47   #88
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

As a very frequent user of Sydney Harbour, let me advise the following. The ferry is heading roughly due south. The wind is coming from south (as do all very strong changes here). The yacht is heading roughly east. Therefore he is on a beam reach.

As others have pointed out, ferries have right of way on the harbour. The captain would, of course, assume that the yacht is going to change direction. By the time he realises that he is not going to (or cannot), it is too late for him to make major alterations considering his mass and speed.

When southerly busters (as we call them) come, they are very obvious for at least 10 to 15 minutes unless you are hidden behind a high southern ridge. In this case, the yacht is out in the main part of the harbour which has very clear views to the south. He should have dropped sail well before the front arrived. Moreover, he should have known from the forecast that it was coming and headed back home well before it hit.
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Old 06-03-2015, 03:53   #89
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

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If he was dead down wind I could see where he was in a pickle and couldn't quickly round up without risking a knockdown. But since he's already on a beam reach and the jib sheet is blown, it seems to me that he could pretty easily round up just by pulling in the main sheet a bit. Hard to understand why he didn't do that. I'd guess he realized he couldn't pass in front of the ferry so decided to blow the sheets in order to slow down or turn downwind to pass behind ferry, but once he'd blown the sheets, especially without any pressure on the jib at all, he couldn't turn down, at least not enough. But I don't understand why he didn't turn up and stop, or even tack. If he was dead down wind it's a whole different scenario but it really doesn't look that way to me.

BTW, I'm in the beam reach camp because you can see the whitecaps are parallel to the sailboat, and while the jib is certainly flogging horribly, it's all happening on the port side of the sailboat.
Pull on the sheets and round up in 50 knots ? Were the spreaders dirty or something ?
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:40   #90
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Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

I still question steering. The sailboat makes zero heading changes. The main is filling and dumping and the boat is making way. There is no significant sail pressure that I can see precluding a turning of the boat either upwind or downwind.

The video starts with 5 boat lengths perhaps. Possible room to head up.

But at the last seconds a turn even slightly downwind would have avoided the collision.
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