T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

True, but Sydney harbour is a special case. The Ferries have absolute right of way. If you hit a ferry, you're at fault.

Ed Zackery

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.

Good to see you had time to get the washing in..

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, we can't know -- none of us was there. It could be that there was simply nothing he could do. But one thing we do know for sure -- he will have to prove that under the fierce glare of the admiralty judge, if it goes to court.

He will be charged for two things -- failure to keep a watch under Rule 5 -- failure to perceive that there was a collision imminent. And violation of his obligation under Rule 17(b) to take action sufficient to avoid a collision, as soon as it is clear that the give-way vessel -- we presume the sailboat was obligated to stay out of the way of the ferry -- has not taken action itself sufficient to prevent the collision.


People stuck with land and road concepts have trouble understanding that there is simply no such thing as "right of way" at sea. No one ever -- ever! -- has the right to just sail along and assume that the other vessel is solely responsible for avoiding the accident. This is radically different from being on the road. At sea, BOTH skippers are responsible for avoiding the accident. When an accident happens, there is a strong presumption that BOTH skippers violated the rules.

Impact 30 seconds after the ferry skipper saw the problem and gave the yacht 5 blasts.... hmmm.... what exactly would you have done?

As stated above... local rules apply there. Last prang I witnessed on Sydney harbour saw a yacht dismasted less than a minute after a ferry left Circular Quay. Dopey bugger appeared from behind the Opera House and speared straight under the ferry's bow.

Coming out of Gore Bay once on a 50k tanker with a tug lashed up on the port shoulder we had a yacht suddenly appear from behind Balls Head and wedge itself between ship and tug. Luckily we were only just finished swinging and were only coming ahead at about 2 knots....but 2 knots sideways in a small yacht wouldn't be a lot of fun.

The mate on the foc's'le reckons the screams from the womenfolk were quite horrific.

Was there an enquiry? Nope, but the boat was listed in Trade-a-boat the following month...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.

BTW, are those REVA clothes pegs? I reckon they are brilliant, good for up to at least 30 knots.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

For what it is worth, the Sydney ferries are exempt from the COLREGs insofar as local statute removes their obligation way to sail. Explicitly, sailboats have an obligation to keep clear of Sydney Ferries.

Oops, I just noticed 44cat posted exactly the same, above...

Nonsense. Sydney Harbour has what is called a "Special Rule", which requires sailing vessels to keep clear of ferries displaying the orange diamond. This rule was copied from the same rule which exists right here where I am -- in the approaches to Southampton water in the Solent. But an obligation to "keep clear" does not mean the COLREGS don't apply. If the sailing vessel fails to keep clear, the ordinary sailing and steering rules apply, and the ferry is obligated to obey Rule 17(d) and maneuver itself to avoid a collision.

There is no such things as "right of way" at sea! Exists only in the inland waterways of the U.S., as far as I know. The concept is fundamentally opposed to how collision avoidance works at sea.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Impact 30 seconds after the ferry skipper saw the problem and gave the yacht 5 blasts.... hmmm.... what exactly would you have done?
. . .

Very possibly, as I said, the ferry skipper couldn't have done anything. I wasn't there.

But he was obligated to (a) keep a watch sufficient to detect the developing collsion; and (b) maneuver himself to avoid the collision.

It is not an accident, that in real collisions, in admiralty courts, there is almost never an innocent party. It is almost always everyone's fault to some degree or another.

The lesson to take from this is don't have a collision. It is never solely the other guy's problem to avoid a collision. Or almost never. You don't have any kind of right of way, ever. This is particularly to you yacht skippers. There is a certain order of maneuvering -- someone maneuvers, someone holds course and speed, but that is only during one particular phase of a crossing. Because you're supposed to hold your course and speed during some phase of a crossing, does not make you like a car, driving along a main highway, where you are not required to even pay any attention to other cars puling out of side roads.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

........ does not make you like a car, driving along a main highway, where you are not required to even pay any attention to other cars puling out of side roads.

I don't think anyone here has suggested its anything like driving a car... although I would suggest that most of us do pay attention to cars pulling out of side roads and act accordingly if risk of collision exists... bit dumb if you don't.

The ferry that I mentioned earlier.. the one that dismasted the yacht.. was going full astern at the time of impact... Sydney ferry skippers don't just stand on regardless.. a collision ruins their day as well..if only because of the paperwork.

It would be a rare event when a ferry skipper in Sydney was held to blame for any part of a collision... even less so when the other party has a death wish.

[ozskipper]

Hey Armchair Lawyers. I will throw this one in.

Was the yacht NUC prior to impact? Or perhaps RAM? While she was not displaying shapes, it is obvious that she was having difficulty.
Given the circumstances, for once a Sydney ferry may actually be in the wrong.
(Just so you know, Sydney Ferries are above yachts on the Stand On vs Burdened Vessel food chain.)
I will heat up the pop corn. Whats your thoughts?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I don't think anyone here has suggested its anything like driving a car...

Someone stated that ferries have the "absolute right of way". This is false. Even without the word "absolute". Ferries displaying the proper shapes and lights have "priority". A very different concept.

[CS Cruiser]

Originally Posted by savoir

Shitting ones pants and making smart decisions rarely coincide.

ROLMFAO, I CANT READ ANY MORE THREADS PAST THIS ONE, MY EYES ARE WATERING TOO MUCH

[SthnJeff]

Why even let yourself get anywhere near a ferry. Sydney Harbour is a pretty big place.

[SoFla Sailor]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

We don't know this for sure by the video.

The judgement came from the straight wake pattern seen when the camera person turns aft just when the woman looses her hat. No action was evidenced, otherwise you'd notice it in the wake.

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[SoFla Sailor]

Originally Posted by PangurBan

The first COLREGS course I did had the instructor commencing with the following:
" Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong "


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Love it!

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[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Where'd the photo come from? That's not a squall. It's a gust front. Deadly. Looks to be passing which is fortunate for whoever took the picture.

I took the picture, just outside of Sydney. It didn't miss us either. But we dropped the mainsail just after taking the photo, and reduced the headsail down to not much, and sailed right through. Pretty windy, we saw 54 knots peak IIRC, but the wind and rain only lasted 1/2 hour or so.

More or less a normal Sydney "Southerly Buster", you usually get a couple of them in a summer.

[clownfishsydney]

That change was forecast days in advance. It amazes me that so many people go out on Sydney's waterways and have no idea that a severe change has been forecast. On 25 January 2015 there was a strong change forecast. Up till it hit there were hundreds of boats of all sizes out on Port Hacking (two harbours south of Sydney Harbour) seemingly without any idea that a 30+ knot southerly was about to hit. Us, we had moved to a sheltered area and reanchored.

As to this video, right at the start the ferry is actually turning to port a bit. You can tell by the skyline disappearing. In this part of the harbour there are a couple of very solid channel markers that may have limited the ferry's ability to turn harder. Also, we do not know what other boats may have been to his port. Also, this is a Freshwater class ferry, quite large, well over 1,100 tonnes and capable of 18 knots. If he had of slowed down, it is more than likely that he would have hit the yacht head on or it would have smashed into the ferry closer to the bow.

The main question is why did he still have any sail up when this change was so obviously approaching and would have been seen at least 10 to 15 minutes before it hit?