Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-03-2015, 15:51   #61
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,957
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
True, but Sydney harbour is a special case. The Ferries have absolute right of way. If you hit a ferry, you're at fault.
Ed Zackery
__________________

El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 15:52   #62
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,957
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.


Good to see you had time to get the washing in..
__________________

El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 16:10   #63
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,957
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, we can't know -- none of us was there. It could be that there was simply nothing he could do. But one thing we do know for sure -- he will have to prove that under the fierce glare of the admiralty judge, if it goes to court.

He will be charged for two things -- failure to keep a watch under Rule 5 -- failure to perceive that there was a collision imminent. And violation of his obligation under Rule 17(b) to take action sufficient to avoid a collision, as soon as it is clear that the give-way vessel -- we presume the sailboat was obligated to stay out of the way of the ferry -- has not taken action itself sufficient to prevent the collision.


People stuck with land and road concepts have trouble understanding that there is simply no such thing as "right of way" at sea. No one ever -- ever! -- has the right to just sail along and assume that the other vessel is solely responsible for avoiding the accident. This is radically different from being on the road. At sea, BOTH skippers are responsible for avoiding the accident. When an accident happens, there is a strong presumption that BOTH skippers violated the rules.
Impact 30 seconds after the ferry skipper saw the problem and gave the yacht 5 blasts.... hmmm.... what exactly would you have done?

As stated above... local rules apply there. Last prang I witnessed on Sydney harbour saw a yacht dismasted less than a minute after a ferry left Circular Quay. Dopey bugger appeared from behind the Opera House and speared straight under the ferry's bow.

Coming out of Gore Bay once on a 50k tanker with a tug lashed up on the port shoulder we had a yacht suddenly appear from behind Balls Head and wedge itself between ship and tug. Luckily we were only just finished swinging and were only coming ahead at about 2 knots....but 2 knots sideways in a small yacht wouldn't be a lot of fun.

The mate on the foc's'le reckons the screams from the womenfolk were quite horrific.

Was there an enquiry? Nope, but the boat was listed in Trade-a-boat the following month...
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 16:14   #64
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,957
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Been there, done that, didn't hit a ferry though.


BTW, are those REVA clothes pegs? I reckon they are brilliant, good for up to at least 30 knots.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 16:46   #65
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
For what it is worth, the Sydney ferries are exempt from the COLREGs insofar as local statute removes their obligation way to sail. Explicitly, sailboats have an obligation to keep clear of Sydney Ferries.

Oops, I just noticed 44cat posted exactly the same, above...
Nonsense. Sydney Harbour has what is called a "Special Rule", which requires sailing vessels to keep clear of ferries displaying the orange diamond. This rule was copied from the same rule which exists right here where I am -- in the approaches to Southampton water in the Solent. But an obligation to "keep clear" does not mean the COLREGS don't apply. If the sailing vessel fails to keep clear, the ordinary sailing and steering rules apply, and the ferry is obligated to obey Rule 17(d) and maneuver itself to avoid a collision.

There is no such things as "right of way" at sea! Exists only in the inland waterways of the U.S., as far as I know. The concept is fundamentally opposed to how collision avoidance works at sea.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 16:54   #66
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Impact 30 seconds after the ferry skipper saw the problem and gave the yacht 5 blasts.... hmmm.... what exactly would you have done?
. . .
Very possibly, as I said, the ferry skipper couldn't have done anything. I wasn't there.

But he was obligated to (a) keep a watch sufficient to detect the developing collsion; and (b) maneuver himself to avoid the collision.

It is not an accident, that in real collisions, in admiralty courts, there is almost never an innocent party. It is almost always everyone's fault to some degree or another.

The lesson to take from this is don't have a collision. It is never solely the other guy's problem to avoid a collision. Or almost never. You don't have any kind of right of way, ever. This is particularly to you yacht skippers. There is a certain order of maneuvering -- someone maneuvers, someone holds course and speed, but that is only during one particular phase of a crossing. Because you're supposed to hold your course and speed during some phase of a crossing, does not make you like a car, driving along a main highway, where you are not required to even pay any attention to other cars puling out of side roads.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 17:02   #67
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,957
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
........ does not make you like a car, driving along a main highway, where you are not required to even pay any attention to other cars puling out of side roads.
I don't think anyone here has suggested its anything like driving a car... although I would suggest that most of us do pay attention to cars pulling out of side roads and act accordingly if risk of collision exists... bit dumb if you don't.

The ferry that I mentioned earlier.. the one that dismasted the yacht.. was going full astern at the time of impact... Sydney ferry skippers don't just stand on regardless.. a collision ruins their day as well..if only because of the paperwork.

It would be a rare event when a ferry skipper in Sydney was held to blame for any part of a collision... even less so when the other party has a death wish.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 17:07   #68
Registered User
 
ozskipper's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NSW Australia
Boat: Traditional 30
Posts: 1,981
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Hey Armchair Lawyers. I will throw this one in.

Was the yacht NUC prior to impact? Or perhaps RAM? While she was not displaying shapes, it is obvious that she was having difficulty.
Given the circumstances, for once a Sydney ferry may actually be in the wrong.
(Just so you know, Sydney Ferries are above yachts on the Stand On vs Burdened Vessel food chain.)
I will heat up the pop corn. Whats your thoughts?
__________________
Cheers
Oz
...............
ozskipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 17:12   #69
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,751
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I don't think anyone here has suggested its anything like driving a car...

Someone stated that ferries have the "absolute right of way". This is false. Even without the word "absolute". Ferries displaying the proper shapes and lights have "priority". A very different concept.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 17:33   #70
Registered User
 
CS Cruiser's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: PCYC Toronto
Boat: CS36T
Posts: 310
Images: 10
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by savoir View Post
Shitting ones pants and making smart decisions rarely coincide.
ROLMFAO, I CANT READ ANY MORE THREADS PAST THIS ONE, MY EYES ARE WATERING TOO MUCH
__________________
Paul
s/v TENACITY - CS36T
CS Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 17:42   #71
Registered User
 
SthnJeff's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wellington NZ
Boat: Raven 26
Posts: 27
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Why even let yourself get anywhere near a ferry. Sydney Harbour is a pretty big place.
__________________
SthnJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 20:06   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Miami
Posts: 14
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
We don't know this for sure by the video.
The judgement came from the straight wake pattern seen when the camera person turns aft just when the woman looses her hat. No action was evidenced, otherwise you'd notice it in the wake.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
SoFla Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 20:08   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Miami
Posts: 14
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by PangurBan View Post
The first COLREGS course I did had the instructor commencing with the following:
" Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
He was right, dead right as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong "


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Love it!

Sent from my SM-N910T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
SoFla Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 20:14   #74
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong View Post
Where'd the photo come from? That's not a squall. It's a gust front. Deadly. Looks to be passing which is fortunate for whoever took the picture.
I took the picture, just outside of Sydney. It didn't miss us either. But we dropped the mainsail just after taking the photo, and reduced the headsail down to not much, and sailed right through. Pretty windy, we saw 54 knots peak IIRC, but the wind and rain only lasted 1/2 hour or so.

More or less a normal Sydney "Southerly Buster", you usually get a couple of them in a summer.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2015, 21:29   #75
Registered User
 
clownfishsydney's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Lightwave 38' Catamaran
Posts: 305
Re: T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

That change was forecast days in advance. It amazes me that so many people go out on Sydney's waterways and have no idea that a severe change has been forecast. On 25 January 2015 there was a strong change forecast. Up till it hit there were hundreds of boats of all sizes out on Port Hacking (two harbours south of Sydney Harbour) seemingly without any idea that a 30+ knot southerly was about to hit. Us, we had moved to a sheltered area and reanchored.

As to this video, right at the start the ferry is actually turning to port a bit. You can tell by the skyline disappearing. In this part of the harbour there are a couple of very solid channel markers that may have limited the ferry's ability to turn harder. Also, we do not know what other boats may have been to his port. Also, this is a Freshwater class ferry, quite large, well over 1,100 tonnes and capable of 18 knots. If he had of slowed down, it is more than likely that he would have hit the yacht head on or it would have smashed into the ferry closer to the bow.

The main question is why did he still have any sail up when this change was so obviously approaching and would have been seen at least 10 to 15 minutes before it hit?
__________________

__________________
Michael and Kelly
Catlypso - Web Site
Lightwave 38' cat
clownfishsydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Ferry

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: Helene and Andre Boning helene12 Crew Archives 4 09-01-2012 16:56
Hello from Sidney, BC, Canada holland Meets & Greets 15 19-04-2011 16:26
Blow Up at Sidney hummingway Pacific & South China Sea 16 09-04-2010 22:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.