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Old 03-08-2018, 14:31   #46
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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You donít have to pole out a Code Zero, or I havenít had to anyway.

Before the code zero my plan was to run my old 110 Genoa and my 135 Genoa on the same foil and pole one out and not go DDW.
I liked that idea as you can reef then together rather easily.
But the sail cloth is so heavy that in really light wind they donít work as well as the Code Zero does.

It is a lot of money, that is why so didnít go with a pure downwind sail, cause most people I have talked to that carry a Spinnaker never use it, or used it once and it was so much trouble that they just donít anymore.

However people with Code Zeroís that are on their own furler seem to use them a lot.

Iím no serious sailor, so I usually stay out of the which sail arguments, but want your looking for is the primary reason so bought a Code zero.
Of course Iím not talking about a legal code zero, but a cruising one.
Can you really go DDW with your code zero in very light wind and swell without poling it out to keep it from collapsing around your stay and perhaps shrouds? Because thatís a major argument against the spinnakers and from where I stand I would assume that the issue would be the same with a code zero.

Once thereís alittle wind neither a spinnaker or a code zero ought to be much trouble to keep full.

Poled out white sails can just be tensioned flat to prevent them from flapping too much. It comes with a performance hit but preserves your rig and sails. And you present a permanent surface to the wind, not one that constantly collapses and ďexplodesĒ back open all the time.

Thatís what nudges me to the white sail solution.
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Old 03-08-2018, 14:40   #47
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

2big2small,

My concern here, put really bluntly, is that if the skipper is basically singlehanding because the wife is involved with child care, what happens on this long voyage, if he slips or is injured? What are her sailing skills? How does she juggle housekeeping, child care with schooling and watch standing?

2big2small, my honest opinion is to use the sail money and hire a nanny. It will make everybody's life much more pleasant. Friends did just that for that one long passage, for them, Panama to Australia. They found it quite satisfactory and enjoyed the freedom that came from having the nanny aboard.

2big2small, take a look at some prevention systems. Ours, is double, always rigged, and leads back to the cockpit winches, so that all gybes are controlled, using the lines on the winch to ease the main across after it backwinds. There is none of this going forward to set the preventer and shift the preventer. A quick Google look showed me a number of dual preventer systems, and estarzinger has written at length about correct prevention. Good luck with it all.

Ann
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Old 03-08-2018, 14:43   #48
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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What is the difference in the motion?


We find (or both of us imagine) that the boat sails flatter and rolls less. In the last 48,000 miles, weíve probably sailed with this configuration 60% of the time.
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Old 03-08-2018, 14:57   #49
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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2big2small,

My concern here, put really bluntly, is that if the skipper is basically singlehanding because the wife is involved with child care, what happens on this long voyage, if he slips or is injured? What are her sailing skills? How does she juggle housekeeping, child care with schooling and watch standing?

2big2small, my honest opinion is to use the sail money and hire a nanny. It will make everybody's life much more pleasant. Friends did just that for that one long passage, for them, Panama to Australia. They found it quite satisfactory and enjoyed the freedom that came from having the nanny aboard.

2big2small, take a look at some prevention systems. Ours, is double, always rigged, and leads back to the cockpit winches, so that all gybes are controlled, using the lines on the winch to ease the main across after it backwinds. There is none of this going forward to set the preventer and shift the preventer. A quick Google look showed me a number of dual preventer systems, and estarzinger has written at length about correct prevention. Good luck with it all.

Ann
We do intend to get extra crew but our experience so far is that itís all a bit unreliable and people might very well leave for any number of reasons (even because they miss their friends) so we want to have everything planned for just the two of us + kids. You have to follow the seasons and if youíre without crew just at that moment then you still have to cast off or loose a year. My wife can sail, but the kids wonít let her, or me, depending on whoís taking care of them. Theyíll be a lot older by the time we reach Panama though.

Iím in the habit of leading my preventers back to the cockpit so I can at least adjust and release them from there, but youíre right, I should also be able to set them from there.

On an unrelated note, I notice a very perceivable performance increase when the boom is locked in place with a preventer, including on a broad or beam reach. I would have ditched the preventer by the time I get close hauled so I donít know about that.
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Old 03-08-2018, 15:08   #50
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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Can you really go DDW with your code zero in very light wind and swell without poling it out to keep it from collapsing around your stay and perhaps shrouds?

Probably not, and why I donít intend to go DDW, even when my plan was two Genoaís on the same foil, if for no other reason than the requirement for two poles, and the rolling motion.
I intend to fall off a little, and may or even may not lose VMG, I donít have enough experience to comment, itís not like I can say what I did on my last Pacific crossing, cause there hasnít been one. Biggest crossing I have had so far was the Gulf of Mexico.
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Old 03-08-2018, 15:25   #51
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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Iíve been exploring the ďcode zero that can be left up even when not in useĒ option but the thing is that it would be around 98 square meters at best while between my staysail and genoa I have about 96 m2 already.

I donít have much experience with light weather sails (only owned one boat that came with a spinnaker and flew it exactly twice), but to me it sounds that I have nothing to gain in this scenario, for downwind sailing. Iíd have to pole out sails either way I figure so itís about the same work.

Of course I could fly both the genoa and the code zero which would bring me to about 155 m2 but is this really ever going to be necessary and workable?


Iíve also looked at asymmetrical spinnakers and itís pretty much the same story. I have to leave some space on top for the sock and clear the pulpit at the bottom. After that I loose so much of my luff that I again have little more than 110 m2. Now I wouldnít have to pole out with that sail unless I wanted to go deep, but then I still have to take it down for squals, or even just at night to reduce risk, and it all seems like itís not worth it compared to my current furling headsails.


Yet I still have this nagging feeling that my headsails donít cut it for when the wind is really very light, which could last for weeks on end out there is my understanding.

Just motor was the gist of snowpetrelís brotherís reply when I wrote to him. He flew his kite only two, or three days on that leg only to gain 1 day out of 17 on those who didnít. He also burned about 200 liters of fuel if I remember correctly. Of course I may have very different conditions during my crossing, hence that nagging feeling I canít shake off. I wonder if I shouldnít just pack a symmetrical to truly gain in sail area, not with the intention to use it but as an insurance.

Any thoughts to cross-polinate my latest musings are very welcome.
Booboo (Josh) knows his stuff, he won his division of two handed Round north island race a few years ago and is a pretty hardcore racer, so for him to say don't bother with the kites surprise's me. But i'd trust his advice. He is one of north sails consultants and his regular job is to design sail wardrobes for superyachts and raceboats.

Maybe a nylon drifter of some sort would be better. Cheaper and much safer with no risk of a wrap. Ideally set on a code zero furler, but it could be set flying opposite the poled out genoa for a boost. Or run it up the spare slot.

Or maybe just buy an old lightweight racing genoa that fits your furler.

Changing the staysail out for a big light sail is far safer than messing with a kite.
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Old 03-08-2018, 22:06   #52
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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I think this is a big benefit of a code 0 type sail, being able to ditch the overlapping 135% genoa and go for a more versitile and higher wind range 110% non ovelapping sail.
This is exactly what I have done, accept it went 100% not 110%. The 135% is a sail trying to be to many things. I'm very happy with current arrangement.
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Old 03-08-2018, 22:19   #53
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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For what it's worth my brother got some pretty good fuel consuption figures running at about 5 knots and burning 1.5 litre per hour on his bene50. At these kind of speeds a little fuel goes a long way on those boats.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...53280028499556
Off topic but do you know what prop he's running?
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Old 03-08-2018, 23:22   #54
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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Off topic but do you know what prop he's running?
It's a Max Prop 3-blade feathering propeller. And a 110hp turbo volvo.

1.5L per hour at 5kts (1450rpm), 2L/hr at 5.5kts, 3L at 6.5kts, 4L at 7.5 kts and 6+L at 8.5kts.

240 litres + 10 x jerry cans. Range under motor: Approx. 1200nm
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Old 04-08-2018, 01:25   #55
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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It's a Max Prop 3-blade feathering propeller. And a 110hp turbo volvo.

1.5L per hour at 5kts (1450rpm), 2L/hr at 5.5kts, 3L at 6.5kts, 4L at 7.5 kts and 6+L at 8.5kts.

240 litres + 10 x jerry cans. Range under motor: Approx. 1200nm
For what itís worth, I have a 100 hp Yanmar on my Bene 50 and I burn pretty much one liter more per hour for the above. I also have a Max Prop 3-blade (but there could be differences in pitch setting for example).
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:02   #56
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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Why not use 2 sheets? Wouldít that make it easier and potentially safer?
We could, but we only fly the Asym (cruising chute) if I can be sure the wind will stay less than 15 knots. In those conditions wandering around the deck isn't a problem. Its not a sail we would gybe very often. If its going to be flown then I want a couple of hours on a straight course to make it worth while and certainly not in the busy waters of the Solent. A run down the Channel is a better prospect.

Oh and a personal belief in keeping things simple.

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Old 04-08-2018, 05:26   #57
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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It's a Max Prop 3-blade feathering propeller. And a 110hp turbo volvo.

1.5L per hour at 5kts (1450rpm), 2L/hr at 5.5kts, 3L at 6.5kts, 4L at 7.5 kts and 6+L at 8.5kts.

240 litres + 10 x jerry cans. Range under motor: Approx. 1200nm
If you get a chance can you ask what pitch he's got the pitch set at.
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Old 04-08-2018, 06:53   #58
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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For what itís worth, I have a 100 hp Yanmar on my Bene 50 and I burn pretty much one liter more per hour for the above. I also have a Max Prop 3-blade (but there could be differences in pitch setting for example).
Yeah, the figures seem very low to me, but he is pretty sure they are correct for his boat. I don't know what pitch he is using, prehaps its a bit overproped.
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:32   #59
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

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Iím looking into buying a spinnaker once again. I never end up buying one because I know Iíll use it only twice or so.

But this time Iím looking more seriously because weíre finally going to tackle the Pacific. I donít want to risk remaining dead in the water for too long for lack of light weather sails.

Weíre two adults and two small kids. Maybe weíll take crew but to be conservative letís assume thatís not going to be the case and weíll be singlehandling most of the timeóthe other adult being busy with the kids or sleeping.

Thatís something in favor of the relative ease of handling of an asym with a sockóor even a furler? But will a symmetrical spinnaker not be more effecient on the traditional tradewind route?

Or, should I just get something like a code zero, a more polyvalent sail that may see usage more than twice, and pole it out the best we can should we need the light weather sailing capability?

Whatís your opinion and experience on this route?
PARASAILOR is the only symmetric. Easy and forgiving, very expensive though, but worth every single penny. I have one, else assymetric w. Sock. To big furling is no fun either, you might end up in an overrun.
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:39   #60
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Re: Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

We did the trip from Panama to Galapagos then to the Marquesas without a spinnaker but did pole out the headsail. Boat was a 7/8 frac rig. Dumb question maybe but have you looked at your intended course yet? We stayed relatively high and stayed with lighter winds but did pick up the Southern Equitorial current, while another boat went further south for heavier air and arrived a day later (22 days). I would look at the furling code zero and stay closer to the equator using the current.
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