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Old 15-08-2014, 20:03   #46
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Re: Still rounding up...

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We do... and we did this week. Others have suggested that was the wrong thing to do. Better to twist off the leech than increase the power when heeling excessively. Coincidentally we do point higher with the cars further back. We have tested that empirically.
Everyone is guessing. Shoot some video, take some pictures, show us the sails, show us the tell tales. Show us the grinders (genoa) and trimmer (main) in action.

This is not a complicated boat and not a complicated problem. Some of the solutions being offered to you are directly contrary to all the sail trim guides.

I am trying to help so don't take offense. Have you ever been on an experienced race boat? Have you ever had a sail trim class or had someone join your boat and teach?

I will submit that at this point you are chasing your tail, getting tons of conflicting advise and not getting anywhere.

You can't learn this from the internet. I thought I was doing OK until I joined a race boat. and watched the trimmer take in 5 grinds on the vang/mainsheet, 2 grinds on the outhaul, 3 grinds on the genny - although the genoa at times does need to be cracked off for pointing.

You can hear the blocks and gear moan and creak when things are getting tight enough.

So as not to sound like a broken record I will bow out with this.

- You aren't getting the main near flat enough
- You aren't pointing high enough and "luffing" off the excess power you have
- You are getting boat speed at times but the boat is in first gear and bent over so the sails, keel and helm can't work together.

I only say this with mild confidence but there have to be hundreds of this boat out there, many of them doing can races and I have not found any significant Google hits about the problems you are having.

Blown sails notwithstanding.



Quote:
I always defined close hauled as pointing as high as possible relative to the wind on a beat with the sails trimmed in tight and the boom mostly centered, not by how many degrees off the wind we sail. We point as high as we can without luffing the genoa.
This is not accurate. The sailing point that you are on is dependent of the relative wind. If the wind is 40 degrees off the nose you trim for 40 degrees - you don't simply trim for "close hauled" everything tight.

The sail is an adjustable airfoil that is only efficient at one angle of attack for one set of trimming. you adjust the sails for the relative wind regardless of the direction the bow is pointing.

Someone has suggested genoa car sheeting angle - inner track vs outer track. This could be a possibility but I doubt it as you say the tells are breaking evenly and that they genoa backwinds the main with traveler down.
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Old 15-08-2014, 20:15   #47
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Understood. Choosing lessor of two evils since 1/3-1/2 of the race is downwind in the channel (depending on the course) and the smaller headsail kills us (or the large genoa helps us).
Try the furled headsail upwind with the cars further forward. If the sheeting angle is too wide, use a Barber haul to get it inboard.

Let it all out downwind.

( That's what we did on a Bavaria which I raced on a few years ago.)
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Old 15-08-2014, 20:45   #48
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
A barber hauler on the 110 will make a world of difference on a tight reach, and a pole will make it nearly as effective as the genoa on a run.

We can do that.

It may be possible in a light winds to set the old genoa flying like a kite, if the rules allow. It will be tough on the luff tape. So don't overtension anyting or use it in stronger winds.

Have to think about that one...

Make sure you lead the 110 sheet inboard of the shrouds, for windward stuff, and then take a lazy sheet outboard of everything to a block on the toerail for the reaches. All the best.

That is how we did it before and how we would do it in the future.
Thanks for commenting.
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Old 15-08-2014, 20:51   #49
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Re: Still rounding up...

Good thread...thanks.
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Old 15-08-2014, 21:05   #50
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Re: Still rounding up...

So I did some more googling and don't know how I overlooked this link.

http://www.neilprydesails.com/images...ng%20Guide.pdf

I have been mistaken in this discussion, primarily about how tender this boat is.

Upshot is that Neil Pryde recommends being reefed in the main above 12 knots sustained and that the 135 is probably way too much sail for 15 knots.

OldFrog - This is really a good read and 323 specific. It can provide you a good road map for different wind levels.
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Old 15-08-2014, 21:57   #51
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Re: Still rounding up...

If your carrying some backwind in the main thats fine, but if you're heeling over 20-25 degrees with too much weather helm you're over powered, you need to reef the main. Then you need reduce or trim the headsail so the helm is balanced with slight weather helm. 17 degrees max heel sounds about right.
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Old 15-08-2014, 23:22   #52
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Re: Still rounding up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
So I did some more googling and don't know how I overlooked this link.

http://www.neilprydesails.com/images...ng%20Guide.pdf

I have been mistaken in this discussion, primarily about how tender this boat is.

Upshot is that Neil Pryde recommends being reefed in the main above 12 knots sustained and that the 135 is probably way too much sail for 15 knots.

OldFrog - This is really a good read and 323 specific. It can provide you a good road map for different wind levels.
Thanks for the link, Cali. Really appreciate that...BTW we do not have a furling main.
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Old 15-08-2014, 23:29   #53
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Originally Posted by fishead View Post
If your carrying some backwind in the main thats fine, but if you're heeling over 20-25 degrees with too much weather helm you're over powered, you need to reef the main. Then you need reduce or trim the headsail so the helm is balanced with slight weather helm. 17 degrees max heel sounds about right.
Understood. My disbelief that a 33' boat would need to be reefed in 14kts of wind has prevented me from going that route, preferring to investigate alternative trimming options instead.

Another problem with reefing is that the wind typically starts to die before we round the windward mark so not only do we have too little sail for part of the race, shaking out the reef can cost us some time as well.

Thanks for commenting
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Old 16-08-2014, 03:56   #54
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Thanks for the link, Cali. Really appreciate that...BTW we do not have a furling main.
Too bad. I think you are really stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

Overpowered on the beat and if you put a smaller head sail you'll be slow on the run.

However if you believe Neil Pryde you should be pointing higher and making better VMG upwind so overall you may be faster around the course.
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Old 16-08-2014, 05:27   #55
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Re: Still rounding up...

Well, as Dan says above, you are kinda stuck. In the real world, you will never be able to compete level with folks who use good sails, tune their rigs, and have adjustments to play with.

Nothing wrong with trying to get the best out of what the specific boat you are racing on has to offer, but mate, until you have similar quality equipment, those other bastards are gonna whomp your butt.

I think that is the lesson that all of us have been preaching, sotto voce behind our suggestions for improving your situation.

But you can still have a good time doing your best...

Jim
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Old 16-08-2014, 05:32   #56
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Re: Still rounding up...

Twisting tops may be a bad recipe.

If you are twisting you may be overpowered and even a twisted sail will pull the top of the mast (and the whole boat) round. Go for smaller jibs. Furling a genoa may too be counterproductive - some sails will develop draft at the wrong place when furled.

Plenty is achieved with proper trim and choice of sails BUT if a flat sailed & well trimmed boat rounds up in a breeze then the design is off.

If she heels then rounds, your trim or sail choice is off. Sail her flat.

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Old 16-08-2014, 05:57   #57
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Try the furled headsail upwind with the cars further forward. If the sheeting angle is too wide, use a Barber haul to get it inboard.

Let it all out downwind.

( That's what we did on a Bavaria which I raced on a few years ago.)
Aint gonna work stu, unless you roll the sail up so much that you can sheet it inboard of the shrouds. The spreaders are way too long to get the sheeting angle anything respectable. The bav probably had inboard shrouds and shorter spreaders to enable a proper genoa to be sheeted outside the shrouds.

All an inhauler will do is wrap the sail around the shrouds.
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Old 16-08-2014, 08:05   #58
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, as Dan says above, you are kinda stuck. In the real world, you will never be able to compete level with folks who use good sails, tune their rigs, and have adjustments to play with.

Nothing wrong with trying to get the best out of what the specific boat you are racing on has to offer, but mate, until you have similar quality equipment, those other bastards are gonna whomp your butt.

Agreed...

I think that is the lesson that all of us have been preaching, sotto voce behind our suggestions for improving your situation.

Even so, I appreciate all the suggestions by those trying to help me solve the original problem..

But you can still have a good time doing your best...

And ultimately that's what it's all about

Jim
Thanks again...
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Old 16-08-2014, 08:10   #59
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Re: Still rounding up...

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Twisting tops may be a bad recipe.

If you are twisting you may be overpowered and even a twisted sail will pull the top of the mast (and the whole boat) round. Go for smaller jibs. Furling a genoa may too be counterproductive - some sails will develop draft at the wrong place when furled.

Seems like the best solution on the beat. In the channel we will use a whisker pole on the smaller jib and see what happens. If we get ambitious we can try switching the headsails during the race one week and see if we can pull it off.

Plenty is achieved with proper trim and choice of sails BUT if a flat sailed & well trimmed boat rounds up in a breeze then the design is off.

Agreed

If she heels then rounds, your trim or sail choice is off. Sail her flat.

Agreed


b.
Thanks again for commenting.
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Old 16-08-2014, 10:21   #60
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Re: Still rounding up...

It's been an interesting read, if I could put my pov to you.
Learning good sail and hull trim is so much easier on a dinghy as everything is so much more reactive.
You are over powered so much more in gusty conditions you learn what needs to be done to stay flat, or you round up , it also makes you read the conditions becoming a reactive helm as capsizing is never fun.

I learnt on a 505 with adjustable shrouds,mast rams, etc etc the hole rig could be adjusted on each leg. It wasn't until we set the rig before we hoisted the sails to the conditions and concentrated on helm tactics and basic sheeting that we got to the placings, the rig adjustments allowed us to get to the podium some three seasons later, but you were talking half boat lengths !

Also .. Don't for get some of the other boats in your fleet have helms that know every wind shift and tidal Eddie and probably new sails so don't be to critical on the boat or yourself

Hope this helps, it takes time.... Be patient




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