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Old 04-09-2012, 09:05   #16
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

Get an inclinometer. You'll probably find that when you think you're about to capsize, you're actually leaning over by 20 degrees. BTW, you know that the only way to capsize that sailboat is with at least a 10ft breaking wave on the beam, don't you? (rule of thumb : 1/3 to 1/2 of the boat's length)

You can get a knock down with too much sail.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:27   #17
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i was taught 3/4 to 7/8 angle for comfort,not perpendicular. try it. works well. but, if ye like hard steering in a fin keel boat, directly into it..fact.
If the boat is designed well, it should take a hard knock down with the spinnaker up and just come back up. I doubt if you are anywhere near capsizing. Be sure to keep some main up.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:48   #18
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I guess that makes sense. Going to look into an inclometer. Thanks!
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:03   #19
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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I guess that makes sense. Going to look into an inclometer. Thanks!

Absolutely, get one. And I think you need a little better understanding of the physics of a sailboat. They are DESIGNED to heel. That gives you a longer water line, and if the sails, etc. are also set properly, you go faster and have a smoother sail.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:51   #20
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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I guess that makes sense. Going to look into an inclometer. Thanks!
It may convince you that things aren't quite as out of control as they seem.

I have a '70s IOR-design-influenced racer with a 47% keel to hull weight ratio and relatively low freeboard. At 30 degrees over, I too go like greased lighting...on a track. The boat is 9,000 lbs. over 33 feet, but is only 9 foot 10 inches wide, so I get a stiffer, but wetter ride than you. The rail in the water and the occasional slosh of green up to the primaries is a sign to depower, but it's also the point where I can just about sustain a surf and can crack 7.5 knots (hull speed is 6.9).

Downwind, on the other hand, is predictably lame unless I pole out a genny and rig preventers for the tall, skinny main.

The wind that makes the Hunter move in crappy, sub-10 knot wind is, at 20-30 knots, going to throw the boat around dinghy style. If you want to change this, you'd have to consider things like moving the batteries under the settees, bringing anchor rode back to the boat's middle, getting weight out of the ends, and rigging a small staysail on a Highfield lever.

Modern production cruisers are focused on making daysails easy. Hunter does this well. Having the boom pretty high, however, along with the flat sections, the smallish keel and etc., does make them rolly and jerky in a seaway. As has been said, it's a tradeoff.

Perhaps you should test if they can be heaved-to? Probably not easily, but if you can't drive the boat in rough stuff comfortably, you need to up your technical sailing bag o' tricks.

If you prefer sailing in 30 knots/coastal ocean sailing, you may wish to consider a different boat. There's smoother sailers available, but you may dawdle in them on light air days and get passed...by Hunters.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:58   #21
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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It may convince you that things aren't quite as out of control as they seem.

I have a '70s IOR-design-influenced racer with a 47% keel to hull weight ratio and relatively low freeboard. At 30 degrees over, I too go like greased lighting...on a track. The boat is 9,000 lbs. over 33 feet, but is only 9 foot 10 inches wide, so I get a stiffer, but wetter ride than you. The rail in the water and the occasional slosh of green up to the primaries is a sign to depower, but it's also the point where I can just about sustain a surf and can crack 7.5 knots (hull speed is 6.9).

Downwind, on the other hand, is predictably lame unless I pole out a genny and rig preventers for the tall, skinny main.

The wind that makes the Hunter move in crappy, sub-10 knot wind is, at 20-30 knots, going to throw the boat around dinghy style. If you want to change this, you'd have to consider things like moving the batteries under the settees, bringing anchor rode back to the boat's middle, getting weight out of the ends, and rigging a small staysail on a Highfield lever.

Modern production cruisers are focused on making daysails easy. Hunter does this well. Having the boom pretty high, however, along with the flat sections, the smallish keel and etc., does make them rolly and jerky in a seaway. As has been said, it's a tradeoff.

Perhaps you should test if they can be heaved-to? Probably not easily, but if you can't drive the boat in rough stuff comfortably, you need to up your technical sailing bag o' tricks.

If you prefer sailing in 30 knots/coastal ocean sailing, you may wish to consider a different boat. There's smoother sailers available, but you may dawdle in them on light air days and get passed...by Hunters.
You bring up some interesting points, but if you reef when that wind gets up to 20 she really settles down. If he has the kind of Hunter I do -- with the old, big stern (don't know how the newer, sugar scoop ones compare) -- a good reefing system should be a top priority for him if he doesn't have one.

I'm seriously looking at a staysail for mine.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:00   #22
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
It may convince you that things aren't quite as out of control as they seem.

I have a '70s IOR-design-influenced racer with a 47% keel to hull weight ratio and relatively low freeboard. At 30 degrees over, I too go like greased lighting...on a track. The boat is 9,000 lbs. over 33 feet, but is only 9 foot 10 inches wide, so I get a stiffer, but wetter ride than you. The rail in the water and the occasional slosh of green up to the primaries is a sign to depower, but it's also the point where I can just about sustain a surf and can crack 7.5 knots (hull speed is 6.9).

Downwind, on the other hand, is predictably lame unless I pole out a genny and rig preventers for the tall, skinny main.

The wind that makes the Hunter move in crappy, sub-10 knot wind is, at 20-30 knots, going to throw the boat around dinghy style. If you want to change this, you'd have to consider things like moving the batteries under the settees, bringing anchor rode back to the boat's middle, getting weight out of the ends, and rigging a small staysail on a Highfield lever.

Modern production cruisers are focused on making daysails easy. Hunter does this well. Having the boom pretty high, however, along with the flat sections, the smallish keel and etc., does make them rolly and jerky in a seaway. As has been said, it's a tradeoff.

Perhaps you should test if they can be heaved-to? Probably not easily, but if you can't drive the boat in rough stuff comfortably, you need to up your technical sailing bag o' tricks.

If you prefer sailing in 30 knots/coastal ocean sailing, you may wish to consider a different boat. There's smoother sailers available, but you may dawdle in them on light air days and get passed...by Hunters.

I can tell you that mine does not heave to well. It stays in position but still moves faster than one would want.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:15   #23
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

Do you have a ballasted keel boat?

Some bilge-keel boats and some lifting keel boats (when the keel is up) tend to roll madly (but not dangerously).

We have a long keel, well ballasted boat, and this one rolls too! So we are limited to the same techniques you use - we go bow in, or else we show larger swells our stern.

And we 'hate' powerboats, especially the displacement ones going fast.

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Old 04-09-2012, 11:24   #24
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Reefing for me has been a big issue when it really counts. My in mast furling system was rolled backwards so I couldn't keep a sail in when the line slipped from the furling drum. I'm all about the early Reefing motto and certainly overdue it many times.
I have the newer model with the fin keel. It heels a good amount but I haven't really opened it up to its potential due to do many issues occurring everyone I go out. My other posts certainly outline all of that.
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Old 04-09-2012, 15:49   #25
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

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I can tell you that mine does not heave to well. It stays in position but still moves faster than one would want.
Maybe some warps or more likely an offset sea anchor might help?

Seriously, though, it's the nature of the beast, the beast being the modern, shallow-bilged production boat geared to club racing and getting seven knots out of 12-15 true wind speed.

There's nothing wrong with that on any level, but achieving stability in higher winds is going to be difficult.
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Old 04-09-2012, 15:54   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Maybe some warps or more likely an offset sea anchor might help?

Seriously, though, it's the nature of the beast, the beast being the modern, shallow-bilged production boat geared to club racing and getting seven knots out of 12-15 true wind speed.

There's nothing wrong with that on any level, but achieving stability in higher winds is going to be difficult.
I could tell you that from day 1 on my boat. Obviously that's my cost for comfort. Well see next time around.
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Old 04-09-2012, 17:58   #27
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

Greg - I know you are a fairly new sailboater. If possible you should try to get involved with other sailboaters and then take an experienced skipper along with you.

My experience in the few Hunters I have sailed a lot is about sail balance. One Hunter I sailed had awful weather helm. The skipper had been complaining of rounding up and also getting knocked way off course after a tack.

He ended up getting a bigger genny to counter the main but in the tacks he was sheeting the genny hard right after the turn before the boat had gained speed. This made the boat weathervane downwind. Sheeting the main first then the genny as the boat accelerated helped straighten out his tacks.

He still had rounding up issues but when taught to "play" the main he was able to get that issue under better control.

This isn't about taking sailing lessons because they won't teach you a lot about boat balance and sail trim in a class. This is about time on water with an experienced sailor/racer.

I am sure your boat performs well and you should not fear wakes or knockdowns. You should learn when to reef and in what sequence to make your boat perform at its best in all conditions.

Wish I was there. I'd love to sail on a new boat.
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Old 04-09-2012, 18:36   #28
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

I used to charter mid 30s hunters for trips to the Bahamas. The gulfstream showed me what they will take. Remember one trip in particular when a tropical storm formed over us as we were leaving Bimini for Miami. To stay on course required going lock to lock with the steering while crossing over crests. My hands were blistered across the palms by the time we got to Miami but we were unscathed. The waves were huge with breaking crests. Your not going over just going to be uncomfortable.
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Old 04-09-2012, 18:54   #29
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Re: Steering Through Rough Water

I don't agree with some suggestions earlier in the thread that a modern underbody (U section forefoot, limited rocker, beamy stern, fin keel) is inevitably associated with the sorts of problems you describe- I've been in some nasty conditions on yachts with this suite of design characteristics.

None of them have presented difficulties heaving to, they've been more manageable running off in winds storm force than any long keel yachts in which I've been unfortunate enough to encounter this need, and certainly not the remotest difficulty with dealing with the nastiest powerboat wakes.

Several of them have also had remarkable light-air performance, so I'm not convinced there is necessarily a trade-off here.

I've always been choosy about which boats I head offshore aboard, so my remarks relate to a selected minority.

Two things which do set the well-behaved examples apart in their underbody: they're well proportioned (designed for performance, balance and seakeeping, with no concessions to unrelated desiderata such as perching 'bedrooms' and 'bathrooms' on the maximal footprint)

and they all have a really efficient, DEEP rudder.

With some experience, a deep rudder with bite, allied with a fin keel, allows the helmsman to apply active cancellation of almost any rolling impetus. (There's a recent thread where I go into more detail on this: when you're learning, you'll make it worse as often as you make it better, but - in the absence of a big kite, provided a boom preventer is rigged, rolling really is not a danger ..... as long as you don't leave any flower vases unsecured ;-)

I personally think the handling problems you describe, to the extent they are insperable from the 'type' of vessel, are more likely to be related to what's at and above the water - most particularly excessive freeboard *
An apartment block is a bad idea at sea, be it a small sailboat or a large cruise liner.

One last thought: sailing yachts make rather poor powerboats: lack of sail can be a major challenge to comfort. If you're carrying sail in light air for roll damping (in which case, strap it hard amidships), try to keep the boat heeled to what is notionally leeward, even if motoring.

* (and possibly excessive waterline beam ... but I'm not familiar with the lines of your boat so that's pure speculation based on stereotyping. Furthermore, my comments about underbody are intended to counter aspersions against a generic type, and may not absolve particular instances of that type whose proportions are either unwholesome, or unsuited to what's above the water)
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Old 04-09-2012, 19:20   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup
I don't agree with some suggestions earlier in the thread that a modern underbody (U section forefoot, limited rocker, beamy stern, fin keel) is inevitably associated with the sorts of problems you describe- I've been in some nasty conditions on yachts with this suite of design characteristics.

None of them have presented difficulties heaving to, they've been more manageable running off in winds storm force than any long keel yachts in which I've been unfortunate enough to encounter this need, and certainly not the remotest difficulty with dealing with the nastiest powerboat wakes.

Several of them have also had remarkable light-air performance, so I'm not convinced there is necessarily a trade-off here.

I've always been choosy about which boats I head offshore aboard, so my remarks relate to a selected minority.

Two things which do set the well-behaved examples apart in their underbody: they're well proportioned (designed for performance, balance and seakeeping, with no concessions to unrelated desiderata such as perching 'bedrooms' and 'bathrooms' on the maximal footprint)

and they all have a really efficient, DEEP rudder.

With some experience, a deep rudder with bite, allied with a fin keel, allows the helmsman to apply active cancellation of almost any rolling impetus. (There's a recent thread where I go into more detail on this: when you're learning, you'll make it worse as often as you make it better, but - in the absence of a big kite, provided a boom preventer is rigged, rolling really is not a danger ..... as long as you don't leave any flower vases unsecured ;-)

I personally think the handling problems you describe, to the extent they are insperable from the 'type' of vessel, are more likely to be related to what's at and above the water - most particularly excessive freeboard *
An apartment block is a bad idea at sea, be it a small sailboat or a large cruise liner.

One last thought: sailing yachts make rather poor powerboats: lack of sail can be a major challenge to comfort. If you're carrying sail in light air for roll damping (in which case, strap it hard amidships), try to keep the boat heeled to what is notionally leeward, even if motoring.

* (and possibly excessive waterline beam ... but I'm not familiar with the lines of your boat so that's pure speculation based on stereotyping. Furthermore, my comments about underbody are intended to counter aspersions against a generic type, and may not absolve particular instances of that type whose proportions are either unwholesome, or unsuited to what's above the water)
Thanks for the post. So it's all agreed that even while motoring having sail up is better for stability and so forth? even if it's directly ahead or behind you?
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