Squall Strategy?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by John A

My heavy squall strategy is to try not to enter a heavy squall!.

I've found to many bad things inside of a heavy squalls, water spouts, micro burst, sudden wind shifts, localized wind waves, and other sailboats, tankers, etc.

Why deliberately operate your boat in reduced visibility?

But apparetly your heavy squall strategy doesn't always work, since you've exoerienced all those things.

So we're talking about "Plan B," what to do if you do get caught.

[John A]

I did many, many things with my boat, and I've had many things happen on the way to surviving my sailing experience.

Each experience has been different requiring different tactics to deal with them. Sometime one thing works one time and not another. So the answer becomes - "it depends".

I realize that we who have spent our entire lives following instructions, solving problems by committee and group think are locked into a series of identifiable options for a given problem are going to be subjected to a shock when confronted with the word "maybe".

I really don't want to get into an ego gratifying dissertation explaining what to do when **** happens, for fear that somebody locks themselves into not trying something else.

Sometimes swearing worked, twice prayer was the final option.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by John A

Sometimes swearing worked, twice prayer was the final option.

Well, it seems the praying worked too. Good for you.


Onno

[CapnBrown]

Originally Posted by John A

If the downwind flow of the water pressure on the rudder matches the forward speed of the boat then the rudder effectiveness is neutralized.
This is why it is unwise to use an autopilot in extreme following seas, the boat may broach before the autopilot can correct the boats direction..

So what is "downwind flow of water"? Are you describing water running down the face of a breaking wave or do typical waves have water flowing down from the crest to the trough? Normally I would think the boat would be traveling the same speed as the water under it plus whatever the wind pressure is moving the boat at. (like being carried by a current) So I'm guessing by your post the higher water flow approaching from astern meets the rudder before the hull is propelled by it and creates a temporary loss of control in turbulence... So at that point if your hull speed indicator is near the back of the boat it would drop to near nothing for a few seconds.

[John A]

I'll try a different explanation.

When the boat is travelling in the same direction as the wind and the force of the swell, and the boats speed thru the water matches the speed of the water in the swell, turning the rudder doesn't produce sufficient pressure on the side of the rudder to cause the boat to change direction.

This is why sailing toward the approaching heavy swell is recommended.

Originally all airplanes took-off and landed into the wind to have the maximum wind flow traveling over the control surfaces. Even though a ten knot wind has zero effect on a 747, if the wind changes direction enough then the 747 is required to land and take off in a different direction.

The statement about auto-pilots refers to the operation of the unit and its inherent shortcomings.. The auto pilot can only react to a situation, it can't anticipate what is going to happen in the next second.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by John A

I'll try a different explanation.

When the boat is travelling in the same direction as the wind and the force of the swell, and the boats speed thru the water matches the speed of the water in the swell, turning the rudder doesn't produce sufficient pressure on the side of the rudder to cause the boat to change direction.

This is why sailing toward the approaching heavy swell is recommended.

Originally all airplanes took-off and landed into the wind to have the maximum wind flow traveling over the control surfaces. Even though a ten knot wind has zero effect on a 747, if the wind changes direction enough then the 747 is required to land and take off in a different direction.

The statement about auto-pilots refers to the operation of the unit and its inherent shortcomings.. The auto pilot can only react to a situation, it can't anticipate what is going to happen in the next second.

Firstly water does not , outside of a breaking wave " flow" , it is a " wave" , so outside of a tidal flow or a river current , even in extreme non breaking wave what you describe doesn't happen. Water does not flow like wind on the sea.

Broaches are caused , often in severe down wind sailing by several methods , such as the stern getting hit by waves, stuffing the nose , or loss of speed the troughs , or incorrect sail plan.

The advice on autopilots and running downwind, predates modern gyro and rate sensing pilots. In my experience modern pilots are as good as and often better then human helms , especially at night. This experience is borne out by single handed racing sailors. While pilots can't see into the future , neither can a Helmans at night ! , both have to react as the feel the boat beginning to respond. The pilot is usually better at that. !!

Dave

[John A]

Ok

I can only relate to my experience of liveaboard boat ownership of 20+ years and cruising for 10, all singlehandling, yours may differ.

You surf down a 50' wave (swell) at 20 knots boat speed in a full keel barn door rudder heavy displacement Cabo Rico 38 and tell us how you did it.

When the swell passes under your boat and you're suddenly in gale force winds with a wind wave attacking the top of the swell at a 10* angle, you can trust the autopilot to keep things under control as you seem to slide backward into the trough where there is a very reduced wind on your sails as you await the front of the next swell to pick you up for yet another surfing experience. You do this for 4 hours and we'll discuss tactics over a couple of beers.

After nearly broaching, I turned the auto pilot off and steered by hand..

[captain58sailin]

On a down wind run from Sanfrancisco to Santa Barbra, we had a 45 knot wind and 20'+ swells, we made great time surfing off the waves at 12 knots, which is a feat for a 9 knot hull, full keel, barn door rudder, and two hands on the wheel, to keep her from broaching. Would never had considered the auto pilot, could never react in time. At the time we were thrilled at making 200 nm to the good in a 24 hour period, not smart enough to scared about the circumstances.

[CapnBrown]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

On a down wind run from Sanfrancisco to Santa Barbra, we had a 45 knot wind and 20'+ swells, we made great time surfing off the waves at 12 knots, which is a feat for a 9 knot hull, full keel, barn door rudder, and two hands on the wheel, to keep her from broaching. Would never had considered the auto pilot, could never react in time. At the time we were thrilled at making 200 nm to the good in a 24 hour period, not smart enough to scared about the circumstances.

I've read a lot on heavy weather sailing in books so listening to guys that have done a lot of this is great. So have you found this situation where water flowing off the following crest negates water flow across your rudder leaving you out of control? Could this be an issue of heading straight down a wave as it overtakes and you usually set your course at an angle so you never see it? Or do you believe the loss of steering John experiences is misleading and the cause is something other than the water flow from astern matching the boat speed?

Sorry to beat the subject up but its an interesting one to me and understanding the physics could help in decision making in design and or tactical choices.

[Rakuflames]

JohnA said, in part: "
I realize that we who have spent our entire lives following instructions, solving problems by committee and group think are locked into a series of identifiable options for a given problem"


HUH? I've never met a sailor who fit that description.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Firstly water does not , outside of a breaking wave " flow" , it is a " wave" , so outside of a tidal flow or a river current , even in extreme non breaking wave what you describe doesn't happen. Water does not flow like wind on the sea.

Broaches are caused , often in severe down wind sailing by several methods , such as the stern getting hit by waves, stuffing the nose , or loss of speed the troughs , or incorrect sail plan.

The advice on autopilots and running downwind, predates modern gyro and rate sensing pilots. In my experience modern pilots are as good as and often better then human helms , especially at night. This experience is borne out by single handed racing sailors. While pilots can't see into the future , neither can a Helmans at night ! , both have to react as the feel the boat beginning to respond. The pilot is usually better at that. !!

Dave

Dave you used a term in there I've never heard before -- "stuffing the nose."

Does that mean a filled headsail that's too big for conditions? That's my guess, but I'd like to know - what did you mean by that?

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Dave you used a term in there I've never heard before -- "stuffing the nose."

Haven't heard the term either but based on his sentence I would say it is equivalent to "burying the bow". If you would bury the bow not quite perpendicular to the current track, you would have a momentum being created that could cause a broach by turning the boat.

No experience (thankfully), but it seems to make sense.


Onno

[John A]

A few years ago (less than 10) a 42 foot ketch arrived on the Atlantic side of the Panama Canal with its decks stripped bare, no mast, nothing..

The term the skipper used to describe his experience was "cartwheel".

[CapnBrown]

Originally Posted by John A

A few years ago (less than 10) a 42 foot ketch arrived on the Atlantic side of the Panama Canal with its decks stripped bare, no mast, nothing..

The term the skipper used to describe his experience was "cartwheel".

Sounds like a term that often closely follows stuffing the nose

[mrohr]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

JohnA said, in part: "
I realize that we who have spent our entire lives following instructions, solving problems by committee and group think are locked into a series of identifiable options for a given problem"


HUH? I've never met a sailor who fit that description.

I think Rakuflames said it best: HUH?