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Old 12-08-2014, 06:40   #61
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

Quote:
You should be shouting, "Hike you B!tches!
Im reminded why I prefer not to race


dave
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:46   #62
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Im reminded why I prefer not to race


dave
It's not for everyone...

Here's a photo of the Benne cockpit crew. This is the last leg of a 10 hour passage race - we are fried. DDW to the finish. I am tending guy & trimming main, next to me is Brian (trimmer) grinding for the spinnaker trimmer who is on the foredeck. Brian is a great all round sailor with many offshore races under his belt.

The guy driving is Nils Razmilovic 2013 UK Etchells Champion. I spoke to him recently and I think he said he placed around 30th? in the World's. I learned a ton from these guys.

I know racing isn't everyone's bag but learning the basics, advanced and boat dynamics has got to be a good thing.

Sorry for hijacking Dockhead's thread - I'll shut up now - LOL...

2013 UK Etchells Open National Championship >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:55   #63
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I just rotated the image 33 degrees to get the horizon about horizontal.


1. At about 33 degrees of heel like that, the crew should be hanging out a lot further than they are. Get them to stick there heads under the top lifeline and belly up to the bottom one with their backsides up to the toerail! I'd also get them to bunch up together further astern.

2. Judging by the angle of the pennant on the stern, it looks like you are on a close reach and if so your headsail is cranked on far too tight.
Good eye. However it is just one mili-second in time and as you know those pennants flap around alot. We're on a beat to the layline for the windward mark and sailing close hauled.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:19   #64
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Sorry for hijacking Dockhead's thread - I'll shut up now - LOL...

2013 UK Etchells Open National Championship >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
Not any kind of a hijack, but just the kind of stuff I'd hoped to hear.

I think we cruisers have to face the fact that if we want to have any hope of learning anything about sail trim, we'll have to suck up to some racers.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:21   #65
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

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Exactly - the rail meat should be sitting with their butts uncomfortably square on top of the toe rail. Everyone can be 12 inches closer to the rail - their tummies should be touching the lower lifeline for sure. Everyone should be leaning out over the lower lifeline and with this heel angle (believe it or not) some crews will extend their arms upwind. You should be shouting, "Hike you B!tches!" in a gruff skippery voice...

LOL but how many degrees of heel do you estimate that positioning would compensate for?

Hard to tell on the pennant but I agree this boat is not yet on a close hauled course and the genoa is over sheeted. The main is depowered causing some of the nose low attitude of the boat.

Those pennants flap wildly in the breeze. Could also result from bow down in a swell.

When the heel angle is excessive like it is in this photo the lift angle on the sails (and especially the genoa in this picture) is "towards" the water exacerbating the plowing that you see.

Sea state is pretty flat so a flat main would be fine (tight steering angle low acceleration). Hard to tell but it looks like this loose footed main's outhaul is not on hard enough.

Outhaul is as tight as we can get it

Depending on where the mark is this boat can be pointing higher. I am guessing this is a buoy/can race and not a true windward leeward course. So close reach is probably what you need to the next mark, presuming you are pointed at it, and you are oversheeted.

We are close hauled sailing toward the layline for the windward mark. Why the pennant indicates we're not is anybody's guess. However, this boat points 5-10 degrees lower than the competition and the genoa is sheeted in to help us point as high as we can. If we center the main any further we round up. That said, since I'm always looking at the windex rather than the pennant over my shoulder, maybe it's not calibrated properly, but in any case it begs the question, how do we get this boat to point higher?
I posted the photo to prove the degrees of heel were as severe in moderate air as I originally stated but I appreciate all the comments it subsequently generated.

Back to the OP and the topic of rounding up, how should the sails be trimmed to get to the windward mark as quickly as possible while minimizing weather helm and rounding up in moderate air like this?
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:38   #66
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

I am sure you have no reason to lead us on but you won't point until you can get the boat flat, the main traveler up, the byatches hiking better and the genoa cars forward...

if all that doesn't work (blown sails not withstanding) I'd start looking at the rig tune.

Btw the keel is definitely lifting the bow to weather in this attitude.

How high are you trying to point? With 6 1/2 boat speed you definitely have the speed to get there.

And just to verify this is a laid course to windward?

From a math perspective you have about 600 pounds on the rail (I count 4 folks) if they all move 12 inches out board that's 600 ft pounds. If they hike hard it's another 400+. 1000 foot pounds will help - not solve what's going on. Not sure if the main trimmer needs to be in the middle of the boat or is doing something in this shot but the main trimmer should be on the high side. The driver might also be able to get further to the high side and steer side armed.

Oh and if this is a momentary gust knocking the pennant to the beam, maybe it is a momentary heel as well? I know I am sounding picky from 9000 miles away but this is just the kind of gust you take by heading up momentarily. Even to the point of "momentarily" luffing the genoa.

One thing to try and this is hard to explain in words is to "sneak up" on the pointing angle. In a practice session start on a close reach, sheeted out. Start to head up and only sheet in when the sails are showing signs of luffing, the point is to slowly accelerate the boat while keeping it as flat as possible.

There is a concept called "changing gears." I didn't understand it well. A boat can get "stuck" at a slow boat speed or bad pointing angle when sheeted on too quickly. it like being stuck in first gear on a car. When the boat really gets it's feet under it is like getting into 4th gear. Everything gets in harmony - keel sails and helm.

The J24 is especially susceptible if the genoa trimmer, rips on the Genoa with "low" boat speed out of a tack. The big genoa leans the boat over futzes everything up and the boat can't get it's legs under itself and get "going."

Like I said hard to explain. On my boat (heavy slow accelerator) I have the genoa trimmer leave about 4-5 inches of trim out of a tack and the traveler down a bit. I point down about 5 degrees and accelerate. As I pass 5 knots I start heading up and everyone is slowly trimming in until we are at about 6 knots and pointing well. It takes about 10-15 seconds to get out of a tack in 15 knots of wind for me.

Your boat is probably a bit more lively.

Oscillating gusts and shifts are the hardest to anticipate and deal with as a driver.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:09   #67
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Re: Some Things I've Learned About Sail Trim Recently

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I am sure you have no reason to lead us on...

lead you on?

...but you won't point until you can get the boat flat, the main traveler up, the byatches hiking better and the genoa cars forward...

If we move the traveler up we heel more and/or round up. We can try easing the mainsheet and twisting the sail more. We moved the genoa cars back because it improved our pointing ability.

if all that doesn't work (blown sails not withstanding) I'd start looking at the rig tune.

Since we have no cunningham or adjustable backstay, the sails are 10 years old, the displacement is 9300 lbs, and tuning the rig is up to the owner, we sail it like it is.

How high are you trying to point? With 6 1/2 boat speed you definitely have the speed to get there.

The tacking angle of this boat is 100+ degrees and we're trying to get it down to 90 degrees so 45 degrees off the wind instead of 50+. The further forward we move the genoa cars, the higher the tacking angle.

We could always abandon the idea of pointing higher and sail to windward on a close reach, ease the sails accordingly, level out the boat, and be satisfied with lower standings in the race. Assuming we could keep our speed up, it would only add 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to our time but on a 5 mile race that's meaningful.

And just to verify this is a laid course to windward?

Yes. We are trying to sail close hauled to the layline for the windward mark.

From a math perspective you have about 600 pounds on the rail (I count 4 folks) if they all move 12 inches out board that's 600 ft pounds. If they hike hard it's another 400+. 1000 foot pounds will help - not solve what's going on.

We can work on hiking further out.

Not sure if the main trimmer needs to be in the middle of the boat or is doing something in this shot but the main trimmer should be on the high side.

He is in the pit actively working the traveler and mainsheet to keep us from being overpowered and/or rounding up. We could move him out of the pit to windward but then he doesn't have good enough footing to get the leverage required to travel back up quickly when heeled like this (the traveler isn't the smoothest piece of equipment). On a port tack it also puts him further from the mainsheet which is on the starboard side.

The driver might also be able to get further to the high side and steer side armed.

Too much weather helm for that.

I know I am sounding picky from 9000 miles away but this is just the kind of gust you take by heading up momentarily. Even to the point of "momentarily" luffing the genoa.

All of your steering comments are valid and something I can definitely improve upon.

There is a concept called "changing gears." I didn't understand it well. A boat can get "stuck" at a slow boat speed or bad pointing angle when sheeted on too quickly. it like being stuck in first gear on a car. When the boat really gets it's feet under it is like getting into 4th gear. Everything gets in harmony - keel sails and helm.

Agreed.

Oscillating gusts and shifts are the hardest to anticipate and deal with as a driver.

Agreed.
Thanks for the comments.

Once again, apologies to Dockhead for highjacking the thread. I intially got into this by stating that I could relate to his OP because we heel excessively and round up in 14 kts of wind.
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