Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-04-2013, 07:42   #46
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
What should the skipper of the stand on vessel do if he comes to the conclusion that maintaining course will lead to a collision?

I've never been in such a situation myself. I treat anything bigger as if it was a train and always make course corrections early, and aim for passing behind the other vessel.
In that situation I'd have turned away from the fishing boat...
Multiple advantages...
Delays impact giving the FB time to respond..
Reduces target area dramatically and converts a T-Bone to a glancing blow..
Reduces force of impact IF there's a collision..
BWTFDIK.... I sail a 21ftr...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:49   #47
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

we have a job to AVOID problems. collisions are problems.
it doesnt matter if you have alleged right of way or not--is just safety to make sure you will not bump boats with another. good seamanship means not colliding with others as well a s getting from point a to point b..all part of same game.
the stoopitist thing ever is someone on beach who has just been slammed by something he didnt care to see would be a problem, shouting about who had right of way. (if he lives thru it, that is...)
whomever has least maneuverability has the right of way. isnt always a sailboat, btw----fishing boats have that honor over us.

PREsume they are working, AVOID em ....

avoidance is the best rule of the road. bigger than you--move away.
more tonnage--move away...
trawlers--move away. change course if necessary--is only a few minuets to hours out of your undefined way. no big deal.
death or damage is a big deal.
holding on to a questionable right of way can yield death.
is much better to not argue and just get out of the way
__________________

zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 08:13   #48
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
What should the skipper of the stand on vessel do if he comes to the conclusion that maintaining course will lead to a collision?

.
STOP.


Stopping the boat (ok it may not be easy if you are downwind with poles out) allows you to better see the change in bearing of the other boat.

If you cant stop then tacking or gybing well away from any possible line of convergence.

I haven't had to do it since I have AIS, but had to do it a few times, before AIS mainly in Asia and the eastern Med where ships captains think they have right of way over smaller boats, or in Asia they may never have seen a sailing boat before and don't know the different rules.

At night remember a ship may not clearly understand you are a sailing vessle and they need to use the 'other' rules. At 3am the Captain isn't on watch, it's the 14th Office-in-Training.... And he's been told: Do NOT wake the Captain or he will be grumpy all day!


Lastly. Remember ships at night are looking for the bright white light of another ships steaming light(s), not for dim red and green lights.


__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 08:49   #49
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
So you see a ship to port, on a collision course. You are the stand on vessel. You come to the conclusion that the other vessel is not going to change it's course, so you turn hard to port in order to pass behind it. Right at that moment the other vessel turns to starboard to pass behind you. Result: You collide anyway.

That is probably how the Corvus J and the Baltic Ace came to run in to each other in the North Sea last december. The Baltic Ace was lost, together with 5 of its crew...

It's not that simple...
That's all fine and dandy but you're talking 2 freighters. We're talking Tall Sailing boat and fishing vessel with outriggers. Generally the burden vessel gets the right of way. If I start my engine, I have the better chance of avoiding the incident if the other vessel is not on watch for some reason. So you are correct that its not that simple but it is as simple as common sense.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 09:22   #50
Registered User
 
rognvald's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Summer: In the land of Wooly Mammoths
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,252
Images: 2
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

"from what i have seen while cruising in the places i have cruised is that fishing vessels and shrimpers seem to aim at sailing boats. perverse, but true." Zeehag


This has been our experience when sailing offshore in the Gulf Of Mexico. The Shrimpers, whether fishing or not, will never alter course and will purposely play "cat and mouse" with any vessel in their way. If you ever went to where they dock their boats on the west coast of Florida (Cortez and Ft. Meyers Beach) you will understand why. They are havens for every degenerate imaginable where crack cocaine is the soup du jour and the police are continually responding to fights, stabbings and general mayhem. These are people you don't want to challenge and avoid at all costs. In regards to the collision, I would support a very strong fine for the trawler and a fine and punishment for the captain, but there is also a very strong case that if the Humboldt had proper lookouts it could have easily assumed the worst and began altering course to avoid collision. We, as sailors, too often want to be right rather than, perhaps, safe. And, since it could be safely said that there is a general antipathy held by commercial fishing vessels for sailboats, it should be all the more important to never assume the other vessel has a proper watch, knows the rules or even cares. Especially, if they think they might have a chance to get away with improper behavior. It doesn't matter if your right . . . if you're dead.
__________________
rognvald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 09:58   #51
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"from what i have seen while cruising in the places i have cruised is that fishing vessels and shrimpers seem to aim at sailing boats. perverse, but true." Zeehag


This has been our experience when sailing offshore in the Gulf Of Mexico. The Shrimpers, whether fishing or not, will never alter course and will purposely play "cat and mouse" with any vessel in their way.
In Indonesia they did that too. It was to cut the Devils off their tails. They believe the Devils stream off the back of their boats and if they get some other boat to pass close astern it cuts the deals off. It's bizarre, and frightening until one understands what they are trying to do and so I go well below them. A loooong way below lol. Pisses them right off!
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 10:03   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: WTB Lagoon or Leopard 38'-40'
Posts: 1,273
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Most of this discussion is ignoring the most important fact that overrides all others - the fishing boat was not under command!

Had someone been at the wheel on this boat, they DEFINITELY would have seen and heard that other boat, and easily avoided it.

I don't believe the larger boat could have completely avoided the collision given the relative courses and speeds. Maybe tall ships should be made illegal, if they can't be controlled, but steel powerboats should definitely not be allowed to operate under power with nobody at the wheel.
__________________
ArtM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 08:47   #53
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
steel powerboats should definitely not be allowed to operate under power with nobody at the wheel.
Agree.
And should have AIS

In fact why is the USA behind the rest of the world on AIS? Why should commercial ships be different in the USA and not have to have AIS?
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 17:10   #54
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sestina View Post

Rule 17b. Also looking at the angle of the waves, the sailing ship was on a beam reach. She made no attempt to luff up and reduce the impact of the collision. Plenty of staff to adjust sails. Plonker.
Your the plonker mate.
An admiralty court of the Netherlands . A country with a maritime tradition that's makes the US a child, decided on the outcome. end of story.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 17:12   #55
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Most of this discussion is ignoring the most important fact that overrides all others - the fishing boat was not under command!

Had someone been at the wheel on this boat, they DEFINITELY would have seen and heard that other boat, and easily avoided it.

I don't believe the larger boat could have completely avoided the collision given the relative courses and speeds. Maybe tall ships should be made illegal, if they can't be controlled, but steel powerboats should definitely not be allowed to operate under power with nobody at the wheel.
NUC rules have nothing to do with someone or not on the bridge.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:53   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 42
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

A couple of things here. If (as seems to be the consensus) the sailing vessel is indeed the stand on vessel in this situation, and at a point and time where it becomes apparent that a collision is imminent, does the the stand on vessel not have a duty to maintain course and speed as to alter either makes him unpredictable and will only add confusion to the situation?

An example from my personal experience. Different modus transportation but exactly similar concept (with a much shorter time frame).

I used work as a cycle courier in a very busy (traffic wise) city. I was coming around a high speed limited visibility bend (I was accelerating through 20mph pushing down a hill) when I spotted a jaywalker off the footpath 15 yards in front of me crossing the road.

I was in a similar position to the fishing boat. My motion vector was on a direct collision course with the pedestrians vector. Unlike (I assume) the fishing boat, I was at the controls and saw the danger, also the pedestrian was aware of my approach.

In this situation, both of us assumed we were the give-way object (the pedestrian erroneously in my opinion). Regardless of how the situation had come to occur (the pedestrian stepping off the path in limited visibility and away from a crosswalk, not anticipating low visibility low audibility traffic, bicycles being a lot smaller than cars!), at the time the collision became apparent to us one had to assume an avoidance protocol. In my head as I was on an overtaking vector, was under power and had a wider range of adjustment available to my velocity and course, assumed the role of give way. The pedestrian assumed that as they shouldn't have been on the road in the first place that it was their duty to avoid.

So being the give way in the situation (in my head), I slacked my turn curve and accelerated to pass safely in front of their constant course. A split second later the pedestrian speeds up putting us again on a collision course. The pedestrian is now on an accelerating (thus unpredictable) vector, so I (and this is dangerous on a bike in traffic and turning) hit the brakes and tighten the turn to pass (less safely) behind their vector. The pedestrian stops in their tracks and I run him down.

All of this happened in about three seconds.

luckily only minor scrapes and bruises occurred as i was hard on the brakes (not dissimilar to the fishing boat near the point of collision in the video) at the time of impact. We joked about it on the pavement and moved on.

The point here is that the pedestrian was the stand on in the situation, the safest and best thing for them to do is to maintain course and speed, in order to maintain a predictable path so that I (as the give way) can correct to avoid. To have both parties attempt correction is dangerous as it leads to confusion.

Things that are not obvious from the video, and I haven't yet read an eyewitness or court report that states otherwise. Assuming the fishing boat was on autopilot.
The sailing vessel may have in the run up to the start of the video.

1. The sailing vessel may have attempted a course deviation, only to have that action cancelled by an autopilot course correction on the Fishing vessel.
2. The sailing vessel may have attempted to crowd on more sail, and have the wind crap out.
3. The sailing vessel may have reefed sheets only for the wind to pick up.

All of these situations could have occurred. But in the end, he did, in my opinion, what he should. When the ships came to close quarters, he maintained a constant bearing and speed, and sounded his horn, in order to give the vessel with the duty to take avoiding action the safest situation in which to do so.
__________________
Allio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 23:28   #57
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post

Agree.
And should have AIS

In fact why is the USA behind the rest of the world on AIS? Why should commercial ships be different in the USA and not have to have AIS?
I haven't seen a US flagged ship in years. The small tugs and barges all have ais. Not sure what your talking about
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 23:39   #58
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
you jest!
i have met a few cruising couples that put the radar on and go to bed for the night on ocean passages!
Man that's crazy. We're not that bad, but definitely when singlehanding I got a few ~4 hour chunks of sleep in while the boat did its thing. The whole "sleep 20 minutes" thing is bullshit if you want to try to keep it up for days on end. Beyond that, when you actually need to stay up for hours (like when doing tricky piloting) you're stupid exhausted.

These days it's a blend of:

- mk 1 eyeball scanning the horizon
- radar
- ais
- picking routes
- vhf cranked up

I'm sure there are some people who keep their head on a swivel for 4k miles but it just doesn't seem possible, desirable, or necessary to me.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 01:07   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

heres a little something on the subject;

There never was a better officer. Cool, capable, on his toes always – and smart toes they were. I remember one night – we had just come up on the bridge to take over the watch – when the lookout struck the bell for a light on the port bow. It was that awkward moment before you have your nightvision, for we had just come up to take over from the First Officer and his junior. Murdoch went at once to the wing of the bridge. I didnt see anything, for a while. I don't think I ever did see that light until it was almost on top of us.


But Murdoch did! And realised on the instant what it was, and precisely what sort of ship was showing it and what she was doing. I never forgot what he did. Before I knew what was happening, he rushed to the wheel, pushed the Quartermaster aside, and hung on to the spokes. The First Officer was still on the bridge.


"Hard-a-port!" the First shouted, suddenly seeing the light again, very close.
Murdoch kept the ship to her course.


"Hard-a-a- My God, we'll be into her!" shouted the First Officer. And then: "Midships the helm! Steady! Steady as she goes!"


But Murdoch had not shifted the helm. That was why he had jumped there, fearing a confusion of orders leading inevitably to a collision. As he stood there, coolly keeping our ship on what we all then realised was the only possible collision-free course, a great four-masted barque, wind howling in her giant press of sails, came clawing down our weather side. We watched, horrified. Would she hit us? But she went free. Just, but she went free! It was a matter of yards.


If Murdoch – or the Quartermaster at the wheel who of course was there to obey orders and not to question them – had put that wheel over we'd have been into that sailing-ship. We couldn't have helped it. If he had altered to port we'd have hit with our bow: if to starboard, with our stern. Our only chance was to keep our course and speed – to go straight. She was one of the great modern steel windjammers, 3,000 tons of her. She could have cut us down.


We were only two days out of New York at the time. None of us had seen a sailing-ship there before. Remember, even the biggest sailing-ships carried only dim sidelights – oil lamps, generally stuck in towers. They were hard to see. We were looking down: she had a good breeze and was making 12 knots. Under all sail the swelling arch of her foresail would have hidden the sidelight from us. But Murdoch saw – just the one glimpse. I t was enough for him. In a split second he knew what to do. We others would have been too late. Upon the instant he had her figured out! Good thing he did, too.


That man let nobody down aboard the Titanic, I'm sure of it. (Murdoch was in charge of the Titanic when she struck)
__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:17   #60
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
I haven't seen a US flagged ship in years. The small tugs and barges all have ais. Not sure what your talking about
Its not manditory for USA commercial fishing boats, toursit boats etc to have AIS, or to have it on. Perhaps its manditory if they are over 300 tons as they would then be SOLAS and its a requirement there.
__________________

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.