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Old 02-04-2013, 03:09   #16
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
It shoed only a few minutes of video. We all know there are people out there commercial or not, that do @@shole things. It's likely the sailboat saw the fishing boat with it's outriggers extended 10 minutes before the incident. Honestly, a prudent sailor with a bow to beam bearing should fall off a few degrees to avoid this sort of foolishness. I mean, after-all, do you want to be right or do you want your vessel in nice shape?
I agree with Celestial here. Colregs are fine, and should be obeyed. On the other hand, If facing a situation where there is any doubt, I always alter course. Both these ships have radar so they would both have been forewarned that a collision was likely.

I do realize that Tall ships don't turn on a dime, but I can't imagine that a proper lookout on the tall ship wouldn't have noted that trouble was afoot.
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:41   #17
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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I agree with Celestial here. Colregs are fine, and should be obeyed. On the other hand, If facing a situation where there is any doubt, I always alter course. Both these ships have radar so they would both have been forewarned that a collision was likely.

I do realize that Tall ships don't turn on a dime, but I can't imagine that a proper lookout on the tall ship wouldn't have noted that trouble was afoot.
There have been cases where last moment course changes by the stand on vesel have caused collisions. This is why good seamanship requires any course changes made to avoid a collision to be made in such a way that they are obvious.
You however can't perform big course changes without a bit of preparation on a big tall ship. I've helmed a tall ship, and making course changes with the sails up is not trivial.
So only small course changes might have been possible, and those might have aggravated the situation...
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:12   #18
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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There have been cases where last moment course changes by the stand on vesel have caused collisions. This is why good seamanship requires any course changes made to avoid a collision to be made in such a way that they are obvious.
You however can't perform big course changes without a bit of preparation on a big tall ship. I've helmed a tall ship, and making course changes with the sails up is not trivial.
So only small course changes might have been possible, and those might have aggravated the situation...
KVB - you're right. I've also sailed on tall ships and I do know they require a lot of space and time to turn. I believe even a small course change could have avoided this.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:16   #19
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Here in Asia colregs are stay away from everybody... Especially fishing boats. Nearly been hit a few times by drunk or asleep captains on fishing boats.. They sure are the stand on vessel around here LOL
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:06   #20
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

The sailing ship did all it could in my opinion, It was clearly a flagrant breach of "adaquate lookout".

justa few points

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I believe that while the trawler was obviously with fault for not altering course, the tall ship was apparently not trying to frighten the paid passengers that can be seen at end of video, and neglected it's duty to avoid collision at all cost. I do not know all the particulars, but I wonder if there were attempts to hail trawler. There appeared to plenty of time for both vessels to alter course or speed.
.....
There is no onus to "avoid collisions" at "all cost" , ie the sailing ship is not required to put itself in possibly more danger. She could bring her rig down, if she manoeuvred incorrectly.

At the court is was stated that the Humbolt attempted repeated radio contact as well.

People quoting 17b are mistaken, its is not a charter to begin action until very near the end. nor its is clear that the Humbolt wasnt taking some actions at the end.

The fact is again and again, large vessels that "do not stand on" when they are required to do , have been penalised. Its only when you are the significantly smaller boat that I advocate " never stand on into danger"

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When I am driving a car. I always look both ways after traffic light turns green before starting through intersection. Just because there are rules, does not mean everybody follows them. Defensive driving or sailing. It is just safer and simple, common sense!
I see so everytime you drive down the main road , you stop at minor junctions just to wait and see if someone might shoot out. Yeah right.

The rules of road, where you stop at a stop sign and the main road traffic continues unencumbered is exactly like give way and stand-on at sea ( not withstanding 17b). The implicit assumption is that you follow the rules. And just like on the road, occasionally at sea some fool runs a "red"

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Old 02-04-2013, 12:23   #21
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Both vessels are at fault. The fishing vessel broke Rule 18.

A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;
(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv)a sailing vessel;

The sailing vessel is also at fault. Rule 17(b): When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

The sailing vessel appeared to do nothing other than blowing its whistle.

It is pretty rare in a collision that one vessel is 100% innocent of breaking a rule.

If it had happened in US waters, Coastie Court would have assigned most of the fault to the fishing vessel but some of the fault to the sailing vessel.
Agreed here.....
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Old 02-04-2013, 15:55   #22
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

The issue, in my mind is if the fishing vessel helmsman was standing watch, if his nets are out he/she is supposed to keep speed and course. The sailing vessel is obligated to change course. I see the outriggers out, he could be fishing? The sailing vessel "should" have altered course.
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Old 02-04-2013, 16:31   #23
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

Is it known whether the trawler was exhibiting the correct day shapes for fishing with trawls? If not, he can't expect to be granted the stand on status.

Of course, in my experience, most fishing boats leave those shapes up (and exhibit the night time signals as well) at ALL times, fishing, motoring along while not fishing, anchored and moored. This somewhat diminishes their significance in practice!

Cheers,

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Old 03-04-2013, 00:33   #24
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

I have met up with large freighters, fishing vessels and recreation vessels. If we are on a heading that will bring us "comfortably close, I try to raise them on the horn (VHF). If there is no answer, I immediately put myself in the position to avoid any calamity. I had an a-hole out of Ventura, Ca. change course every time I did. This started from over a mile away. At first I thought it was the Coasties. I tacked 4 times and even took my 1 million candle powered light to light up my sail. At the last moment I started the engine and jibed that he could not copy because of his speed. It was then the VHF came alive with..."What's the matter...you don't know the rules of the road"? My reply was..."Which rule was that...to see how close you can come to a vessel under sail"?
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:48   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I have met up with large freighters, fishing vessels and recreation vessels. If we are on a heading that will bring us "comfortably close, I try to raise them on the horn (VHF). If there is no answer, I immediately put myself in the position to avoid any calamity.
That my friend is the only right answer!!

Around Galveston we sail in amongst commercial shipping all the time. Taking a safe heading long before anyone needs to ask what rule applies or who's most restricted makes the sailing more relaxed and avoids the inevitable aggressive outburst when one insists on being right.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:18   #26
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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That my friend is the only right answer!!

Around Galveston we sail in amongst commercial shipping all the time. Taking a safe heading long before anyone needs to ask what rule applies or who's most restricted makes the sailing more relaxed and avoids the inevitable aggressive outburst when one insists on being right.

So you see a ship to port, on a collision course. You are the stand on vessel. You come to the conclusion that the other vessel is not going to change it's course, so you turn hard to port in order to pass behind it. Right at that moment the other vessel turns to starboard to pass behind you. Result: You collide anyway.

That is probably how the Corvus J and the Baltic Ace came to run in to each other in the North Sea last december. The Baltic Ace was lost, together with 5 of its crew...

It's not that simple...
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:24   #27
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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you jest!
i have met a few cruising couples that put the radar on and go to bed for the night on ocean passages!
Fair enough, what's the problem?


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Old 03-04-2013, 02:46   #28
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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Fair enough, what's the problem?


not that radar!
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:05   #29
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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not that radar!
I don't even understand how that would help. If you survive the night you may as well have conserved the batteries. Can radars wake you up?
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:19   #30
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Re: So You Fall Asleep On Your Watch?

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I don't even understand how that would help. If you survive the night you may as well have conserved the batteries. Can radars wake you up?
Radars have an alarm function that you can set to scream at you if it spots something.

Of course - not everything shows up on radar.............

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