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Old 10-12-2008, 16:36   #46
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I thought that's what I said..;-)

The oh **** rule...as I call it....is take early and positive action to avoid collision...as as been stated....in other posts.....

if for instance, as some have suggested, the small vessel was the stand on vessel.
He could have made any number of maneuvers to avoid this accident, including...Stopping!!....both skippers are at fault..
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Old 10-12-2008, 20:01   #47
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What "doubt" is there? From the video you can only see the port bow of the smaller boat - you cannot see any part of the starboard side. And from the aspect it's apparent that from the smaller boat, only the starboard bow of the larger was visible. To be "head-on" you both need to be within 5 degrees of the other's bow.
There is no five degree definition in the COLREGS. The definition of crossing or meeting is left vague intentionally. Making it vague makes it more likely that if there is doubt then both vessels become the give way vessel. Besides, the requirement to take early and apparent action was violated long before any other rules were violated irrespective of whether it was a meeting or crossing situation. Nowhere in the rules is there a situation where a vessel goes from being a give way vessel to a stand on vessel....not before they are "past and clear".
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Old 10-12-2008, 22:15   #48
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There is no five degree definition in the COLREGS. The definition of crossing or meeting is left vague intentionally. Making it vague makes it more likely that if there is doubt then both vessels become the give way vessel. Besides, the requirement to take early and apparent action was violated long before any other rules were violated irrespective of whether it was a meeting or crossing situation. Nowhere in the rules is there a situation where a vessel goes from being a give way vessel to a stand on vessel....not before they are "past and clear".
David - you're right about 5 degrees not being in colregs - I should have said "about 5 degrees" as that is what one could practically describe as head-on. Cockcroft says that the courts previously considered vessels to be "nearly reciprocal" when they were within 6 degrees of opposite (180 degrees). If you take rule 14 literally, then it would have to be within 3 degrees due to the practical cut-off requirements of sidelights' arcs ahead. I simply said 5 degrees as a rough guide.

The requirement to take early and apparent action is the port vessel's alone in a crossing situation, but incumbent on both in a head-on situation.

I never suggested any vessel goes from being give-way to stand-on, so have no idea to what you are referring?

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Old 17-12-2008, 20:11   #49
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gosh cant even get a sure answer on this for sure got alot of rules interpetation why cant they make the rules simple. we cant even get this simple one here agreed on except that they were both stupid so how do you really exspect them to understand the water laws. thats why i just asume everyone except me on the water are idots and i keep my boat away from them.
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Old 17-12-2008, 21:34   #50
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gosh cant even get a sure answer on this for sure got alot of rules interpetation why cant they make the rules simple. we cant even get this simple one here agreed on except that they were both stupid so how do you really exspect them to understand the water laws. thats why i just asume everyone except me on the water are idots and i keep my boat away from them.
The rules are actually very simple. The problem with simple is that you can't really predict every scenario so you have to have a "catch all" rule that usually says when in doubt, both parties are at fault.

We spend a lot of time arguing the catch all.

Reality is that the court decides.

Your strategy to avoid all the "idiots" is the best one.
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Old 27-12-2008, 09:53   #51
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Also notice that there appears to be something, I think the bow of another vessel, on the far right of the video about one second into the video. The waters may have been more crowded than the video shows. Possibly more variables made this a more difficult situation than first appears.

It is tough to say what needed to be done in order to avoid collision based on the video alone. Altering course to port is a bad idea in nearly every scenerio. Of course, doing nothing resulted in a collision!
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Old 27-12-2008, 10:19   #52
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I never saw the bow of the 3rd vessel before. Even though it's there there doesn't appear to be any reason it should be included into the incident. The boat with the camera could have cleared it's stern easily by falling off to strbrd. Just as it should have cleared the vessel it impacted.....lots of stupidity there!
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Old 27-12-2008, 10:32   #53
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Guzzi,
The overtaking vessel is the burdened (give way) vessel whether power or sail. The new terms are "stand on" and "give way."
Regards,
JohnL

I always learned the vessel being overtaken is the burdened vessel, meaning they hold course and speed in order to avoid collision with the overtaking vessel as they are going faster.
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Old 27-12-2008, 11:04   #54
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Also notice that there appears to be something, I think the bow of another vessel, on the far right of the video about one second into the video. The waters may have been more crowded than the video shows. Possibly more variables made this a more difficult situation than first appears.
Wow! Good eyes Geo. I had missed that. Perhaps that's why the larger boat didn't bear off to starboard so as to pass port-to-port?
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Old 27-12-2008, 17:04   #55
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Old 28-12-2008, 13:16   #56
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Uh, this is a trick question, right? Nobody has the "right of way", ever. A vessel may be the the stand-on or give-way vessel but nothing confers absolute right of way. See the "General Prudential Rule" (unofficial name) below:

Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
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Old 28-12-2008, 16:47   #57
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Old 28-12-2008, 17:15   #58
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"Right of way" is such an ephemeral concept.

It attempts to place some kind of generally agreed order on a situation.

Generally staying out of the big (bigger) guys way is a good idea.

And realizing that the biggest qualification most boat owners have is a checkbook encourages one to exercise extreme caution...and take positive and visible corrective action to protect your little piece of flotsam
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Old 28-12-2008, 19:52   #59
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I always learned the vessel being overtaken is the burdened vessel, meaning they hold course and speed in order to avoid collision with the overtaking vessel as they are going faster.
That's why the updated terminology is a good idea. "Burdened" and and "Privileged" is ambiguous. The terms "Give Way" and "Stand On" describe the actions of the vessel which is clearer to me.

If I am the stand on vessel (being overtaken) I hold course and speed until it is clear the other guy won't give way. Then I take appropriate action to avoid a collision.

In your quote (old terms) the overtaking vessel was actually burdened. The overtaking vessel had the "burden" to stay clear. The vessel being passed was the privileged vessel.

Does that mean they have the privilege to do anything? No. Their responsibility was to stand on.

See how those terms are confusing?
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Old 28-12-2008, 20:04   #60
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Nobody has the "right of way", ever.
Except as described in US Inland Rules.
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