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Old 06-10-2014, 17:30   #106
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
May be, just may be, I got the Rustic Charm's post wrong. If so, sorry. But I'm not so sure.
It is not true, that people coming by boats are refugees and illegal immigrants are just those who overstays their visas. May be it is the statistically important case for Australia? I do not know, of course.
But illegal immigrants constitute most of the visaless flow of people coming to the Europe and USA. It is good to understand this, as refugees and illegal immigrants should be treated differently.
No European governement denies the rights of refugees. And for (real) refugees means of transportations are not relevant. They can come in a spaceship even
So - there is no anything specific in coming by boat.
A refugee is a refugee coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Illegal immigrant is illegal immigrant coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Coming by boat does not make anybody legal, and this was, what I wanted to point out.

Cheers,

Tomasz
I think we agree

Australia is probably a special case as all arrivals must come by sea or air (or perhaps the said spaceship!)
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Old 06-10-2014, 18:36   #107
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.
I think that's what I would do as well.

Good thread, thanks for all the informed opinions.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:59   #108
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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I think that's what I would do as well.

Good thread, thanks for all the informed opinions.
Make that plus two.

northoceanbeach, you've been otherwise occupied than reading history.

Ann
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:04   #109
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Dear Rustic Charm!

Please, make me a favour. Take Your boat, drop Your passport and all documents overboard, do not apply for any visa, sail to the United States, Canada, Japan, or any European country and claim, that You are coming legally because You are coming by boat. Next please, post report here.

With my very best regards,

waiting, but not holding my breath,

Tomasz
I'm sorry Tomasz, but I don't understand your reply

All of those countries you named and most European countries WOULD in fact take seriously a refugee claim if I was to make one, even after arriving on my boat. So, I'm a little lost to what your getting at.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:11   #110
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.
uuuuuh - Evans. Was it Hawk's stability that was affected or the 50 scots (after imbibing?)

Methinks you would have needed to fill Hawks water tanks with whisky to keep pace with 50 scotsmen
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:14   #111
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Rustic Charm, please forgive me for butting in here, but Tomasz is from Poland. Possibly more than any other European country, Poland has, for millenia, dealt with refugees, mostly due to its geographical placement, I think, but am not certain of this.

The people in Europe are faced with an influx of refugees that most nations' representatives feel are so many that it is outside their ability to cope. In some ways this is similar to Oz, in that Oz is fairly fragile with regard to how much population it can feed and water, and is also different, in that the land mass is very small.

I think Tomasz wanted for you to imagine the difficulty of arriving in a country where you do not speak the language and beg for asylum. You would have to have endless interviews, and convince the interviewers that you were truly endangered in your country of origin to be granted asylum, and if not, you would be deported--in your own case, back to Australia. But those who are deported back to Syria, for instance, might face a different fate.

I hope this helps.

Ann
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:18   #112
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
May be, just may be, I got the Rustic Charm's post wrong. If so, sorry. But I'm not so sure.
It is not true, that people coming by boats are refugees and illegal immigrants are just those who overstays their visas. May be it is the statistically important case for Australia? I do not know, of course.
But illegal immigrants constitute most of the visaless flow of people coming to the Europe and USA. It is good to understand this, as refugees and illegal immigrants should be treated differently.
No European governement denies the rights of refugees. And for (real) refugees means of transportations are not relevant. They can come in a spaceship even
So - there is no anything specific in coming by boat.
A refugee is a refugee coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Illegal immigrant is illegal immigrant coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Coming by boat does not make anybody legal, and this was, what I wanted to point out.

Cheers,
H
Tomasz
Yes, I agree with you. My post was a little too much of an Australian context and I appreciate that especially for the U.S. and UK most 'illegal' immigrants attempt to sneak in and do not claim refugee status or seek asylum. The Australian situation however is very different. Most people come via these rickety boats as discussed by the OP are in fact determined to be genuine refugees and or asylum seekers. This is a statistical reality that was the case until the currant government decided not to process claims at all. You are entirely correct in pointing out that the mode of arrival is not relevant, which was what I was getting at.

I'm not sure about the space ship point though. I've seen independence day and the U.S. would shoot at em.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:42   #113
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pirate Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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why do Europeans feel sorry for refugees?:because it pisses off our facist middle class elitist, ruling elite!

,not so long ago half of the European population were refugees,either from the communists or the Nazis.........or both in the case of israel!
White mans 'Creative' hobby... just now tho' its not popular in Europe so folks are practicing in the Middle East... a more politically acceptable disposable population...
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:58   #114
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pirate Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

As an EU Citizen it would be my duty to radio in the situation.. its illegal to aid and abet people smugglers.. same with drug/arms smugglers..
One is then left with ones moral obligations..
Does one then move on and leave them to their fate knowing/assuming the likelihood is the boat will founder..
only each individual can answer that.. and only in the heat of the moment.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:08   #115
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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As an EU Citizen it would be my duty to radio in the situation.. its illegal to aid and abet people smugglers.. same with drug/arms smugglers..
One is then left with ones moral obligations..
Does one then move on and leave them to their fate knowing/assuming the likelihood is the boat will founder..
only each individual can answer that.. and only in the heat of the moment.
Providing life saving assistance to the 50 people on the boat I doubt can anywhere be claimed to be 'aid and abet people smugglers'. Let's keep in mind that the passengers, the people being 'smuggled' are not the 'smugglers'.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:09   #116
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Rustic Charm, please forgive me for butting in here, but Tomasz is from Poland. Possibly more than any other European country, Poland has, for millenia, dealt with refugees, mostly due to its geographical placement, I think, but am not certain of this.

The people in Europe are faced with an influx of refugees that most nations' representatives feel are so many that it is outside their ability to cope. In some ways this is similar to Oz, in that Oz is fairly fragile with regard to how much population it can feed and water, and is also different, in that the land mass is very small.

I think Tomasz wanted for you to imagine the difficulty of arriving in a country where you do not speak the language and beg for asylum. You would have to have endless interviews, and convince the interviewers that you were truly endangered in your country of origin to be granted asylum, and if not, you would be deported--in your own case, back to Australia. But those who are deported back to Syria, for instance, might face a different fate.

I hope this helps.

Ann
Wow, I really didn't grasp what he was getting at. Thanks Ann.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:15   #117
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Hmm... while I'm sure RC can answer for himself, let me make a couple of comments.

RC claimed that it is not illegal for refugees to arrive in such a fashion. I tend to agree with him but I'm no legal eagle.

Tossing your paperwork over the side does not make anyone a refugee and to do so on a whim (or as favour to a CF member ) is possibly illegal - certainly foolhardy.

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

The refugee word is a loaded one but it does have a formal meaning within the UNHCR framework and it helps (IMO) to stick with formal definitions when discussing an emotive and complex issue.
thank you. Completely agree.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:33   #118
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pirate Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Providing life saving assistance to the 50 people on the boat I doubt can anywhere be claimed to be 'aid and abet people smugglers'. Let's keep in mind that the passengers, the people being 'smuggled' are not the 'smugglers'.
Not Radioing in is aiding and abetting... both the smuggled and the smugglers...
If they're in the water.. then they are victims of misadventure..
One follows one's conscience...
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Old 10-10-2014, 22:33   #119
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Illegal immigration is a crime. As is smuggling illegal immigrants/refugees.
There were several other posts hammering away at legal vs. illegal.

Here in the U.S., helping a runaway slave used to be illegal.

What is legal or illegal is a function of local politics and not necessarily a function of right and wrong.

If we're discussing what is legal or illegal, the original moderator's friend is probably fine.

If, as he suggested, we are trying to "ponder" the moral side of it, legal and illegal has nothing to do with it, because hiding Jews from the law can, in fact, be exactly the morally right choice.

So my suggestion is to make the moral case or make the legal case, but don't confuse the two.
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Old 10-10-2014, 23:40   #120
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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There were several other posts hammering away at legal vs. illegal.

Here in the U.S., helping a runaway slave used to be illegal.

What is legal or illegal is a function of local politics and not necessarily a function of right and wrong.

If we're discussing what is legal or illegal, the original moderator's friend is probably fine.

If, as he suggested, we are trying to "ponder" the moral side of it, legal and illegal has nothing to do with it, because hiding Jews from the law can, in fact, be exactly the morally right choice.

So my suggestion is to make the moral case or make the legal case, but don't confuse the two.
Morality aside, it is NOT illegal to seek asylum! Sneeking in as an immigrant without permission/approval is in most circumstances illegal or at least not permitted, but seeking asylum is not illegal.
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