Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-10-2014, 12:31   #91
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post



It's dark as the inside of a cow.
Ann. You have been in Australia too long.



__________________

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:01   #92
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
sa a sola female, i think that i would make sure they arent direly in need of saving, then get enough space between to be feeling safe yet able to see, and call for help on vhf... pan pan..at such coordinates, and stand by until i saw something was gonna improve.
Well, this makes me a sola female too, I think. Which means you are not sola.

Love&flowers,
barnakiel
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:12   #93
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.
__________________
estarzinger is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:35   #94
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Dear Rustic Charm!

Please, make me a favour. Take Your boat, drop Your passport and all documents overboard, do not apply for any visa, sail to the United States, Canada, Japan, or any European country and claim, that You are coming legally because You are coming by boat. Next please, post report here.

With my very best regards,

waiting, but not holding my breath,

Tomasz
The point is, you are both correct. And many other posters are bang on too.

Can two people be right at the same time? Or is this beyond our "I, me, mine" as represented by vast swathes of apparently christian values praising societies?

Whoever says they should be drowned has an argument and whoever says they should be saved has and argument. And many a sailor knows what SOS stands for. Now let the illegal bodies disappear in the dark and silent abyss.

But it does not have to be this way. They do not have to die.

The EU central govt is NOT doing enough to help states like Greece, Italy and Spain manage the issue. Meanwhile, thousands of people drown every year in waters of Mediterraneo and in the Atlantic. These people die because politicians in Brussels are selfish, self-centered, money driven individuals interested solely in extending their publicly funded useless existences. We pay our politicians money that could be better used on the EU borders. To avoid people smuggling and to protect more humans/refugees/immigrants from sure death.

And we are like those politicians too, when we keep on arguing. More willing to save our self image than to face the stark reality.

Cheers,
Your by far favourite atheist,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:41   #95
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
The point is, you are both correct. And many other posters are bang on too.

Can two people be right at the same time? Or is this beyond our "I, me, mine" as represented by vast swathes of apparently christian values praising societies?

Whoever says they should be drowned has an argument and whoever says they should be saved has and argument. And many a sailor knows what SOS stands for. Now let the illegal bodies disappear in the dark and silent abyss.

But it does not have to be this way. They do not have to die.

The EU central govt is NOT doing enough to help states like Greece, Italy and Spain manage the issue. Meanwhile, thousands of people drown every year in waters of Mediterraneo and in the Atlantic. These people die because politicians in Brussels are selfish, self-centered, money driven individuals interested solely in extending their publicly funded useless existences. We pay our politicians money that could be better used on the EU borders. To avoid people smuggling and to protect more humans/refugees/immigrants from sure death.

And we are like those politicians too, when we keep on arguing. More willing to save our self image than to face the stark reality.

Cheers,
Your by far favourite atheist,
b.
+2 we need to be stopping them on the beaches of north africa
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:41   #96
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.
Dang! Im getting me a Van de Stadt!
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:43   #97
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Dear Rustic Charm!

Please, make me a favour. Take Your boat, drop Your passport and all documents overboard, do not apply for any visa, sail to the United States, Canada, Japan, or any European country and claim, that You are coming legally because You are coming by boat. Next please, post report here.

With my very best regards,

waiting, but not holding my breath,

Tomasz
Hmm... while I'm sure RC can answer for himself, let me make a couple of comments.

RC claimed that it is not illegal for refugees to arrive in such a fashion. I tend to agree with him but I'm no legal eagle.

Tossing your paperwork over the side does not make anyone a refugee and to do so on a whim (or as favour to a CF member ) is possibly illegal - certainly foolhardy.

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

The refugee word is a loaded one but it does have a formal meaning within the UNHCR framework and it helps (IMO) to stick with formal definitions when discussing an emotive and complex issue.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 16:46   #98
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.
Hahaha

Im laughing because I recently had my passport chewed by a dog whilst in Spain. I went to the British Embassy.
They would issue me with an Emergency Passport, but not without paying 124 EUR for it.....

Good luck with getting home
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:04   #99
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,743
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Dang! Im getting me a Van de Stadt!
You just don't want them all rushing to the same side at the same time to watch the fireworks
__________________
estarzinger is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:06   #100
Registered User
 
northoceanbeach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Boat: Cape Dory 28
Posts: 445
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

How come if an ill prepared skipper goes to sea and has to be rescued everyone trashes him for costing the taxpayer money for the rescue but if you have "refugees" with fifty people on a boat swampin Europe everyone feels sorry for them?
northoceanbeach is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:07   #101
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Hmm... while I'm sure RC can answer for himself, let me make a couple of comments.

RC claimed that it is not illegal for refugees to arrive in such a fashion. I tend to agree with him but I'm no legal eagle.

Tossing your paperwork over the side does not make anyone a refugee and to do so on a whim (or as favour to a CF member ) is possibly illegal - certainly foolhardy.

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

The refugee word is a loaded one but it does have a formal meaning within the UNHCR framework and it helps (IMO) to stick with formal definitions when discussing an emotive and complex issue.

May be, just may be, I got the Rustic Charm's post wrong. If so, sorry. But I'm not so sure.
It is not true, that people coming by boats are refugees and illegal immigrants are just those who overstays their visas. May be it is the statistically important case for Australia? I do not know, of course.
But illegal immigrants constitute most of the visaless flow of people coming to the Europe and USA. It is good to understand this, as refugees and illegal immigrants should be treated differently.
No European governement denies the rights of refugees. And for (real) refugees means of transportations are not relevant. They can come in a spaceship even
So - there is no anything specific in coming by boat.
A refugee is a refugee coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Illegal immigrant is illegal immigrant coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Coming by boat does not make anybody legal, and this was, what I wanted to point out.

Cheers,

Tomasz
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:11   #102
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
+2
We need to be stopping them on the beaches of north africa
+... how many??? ...never mind... You are just right!!!
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:13   #103
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
How come if an ill prepared skipper goes to sea and has to be rescued everyone trashes him for costing the taxpayer money for the rescue but if you have "refugees" with fifty people on a boat swampin Europe everyone feels sorry for them?
why do Europeans feel sorry for refugees?:because it pisses off our facist middle class elitist, ruling elite!

,not so long ago half of the European population were refugees,either from the communists or the Nazis.........or both in the case of israel!
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:17   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 70
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.
Very good answer!
__________________
Coxswain is offline  
Old 06-10-2014, 17:29   #105
Registered User
 
northoceanbeach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Boat: Cape Dory 28
Posts: 445
Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
why do Europeans feel sorry for refugees?:because it pisses off our facist middle class elitist, ruling elite!

,not so long ago half of the European population were refugees,either from the communists or the Nazis.........or both in the case of israel!
I'm not sure I follow you....
__________________

northoceanbeach is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
skipper

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll! Your Attitude Towards Trolls Dockhead Off Topic Forum 47 06-10-2010 14:03
It's Gettin' on Towards Time ... nosinglesource Meets & Greets 13 06-07-2010 15:25
Other Boats Cruising Towards Panama ? yachtmastergreg Meets & Greets 11 07-09-2009 19:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.