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Old 03-10-2014, 22:55   #31
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
You would have actually NOT been doing them a favor by calling authorities. They would have been "captured" by the greek authorities within a reasonable distance from shore, would most likely been sent back to their native country under reasonable duress and not only perhaps faced jail time and forfeiture in their home countries but also family ridicule... and on top of that lost their life savings for nothing. Smugglers or not, within eye shot of shore you are not doing any favors by turning them in.

IMO, "wedding party" or not.

Here you go.. "facts" from Amnesty International.

Refugees and Migrants | Amnesty International
Regardless of AI's position, I think most people see a difference between genuine refugees, and economic migrants. I have a world of empathy for the former, and not as much for the later, although I do understand their motivation.

As far as seeing people in distress at sea, I would not be doing the analysis what category they are in, although my suspicion would be the economic migrants. Call the applicable coast guard, and let them deal with it. Returning the migrants to their point of origin still puts them in all likely hood 1000's of miles away from their country of origin.

The decision has nothing to do with the legal status and consequences, but everything to do with our obligation to save lives at sea if we can assist.
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Old 04-10-2014, 00:07   #32
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

These problems are occurring in waters we are currently cruising. The situation Carsten described is a really tough one: 50 people on a 10m boat in gale conditions, who will eventually to be dumped in the water (hopefully close to shore, but not necessarily, they are certainly not dropped off on land). Chance of them all surviving is pretty low. We get weekly reports of bodies being fished out of the water here on the eastern side of Greece. Throwing your liferaft/dinghy will make little difference and at what point do you do this? Pretty useless unless you actually see people in the water.

You report them, they are most likely going to be pushed overboard as soon as the coastguard is spotted or when they hear your VHF call (this is what happens here, leaving the smugglers to beat a hasty and usually successful retreat). How many will live even if the coastguard is close at the time? Many of these illegal migrants/refugees are children. Their chance of survival in this case is possibly less than had they been dumped close to shore.

"Standing by" is unlikely to be an option. They will be in a faster boat.

I really don't know what I would do. I hope I never have to face this situation. I suspect though that doing nothing is the best alternative.

Once people are in the water, it is a different matter. I would hope most cruisers would simply act to save them. We may not have boats equipped to sail with 50, but most of us would certainly have room to pack that many in, in an emergency. If not, you would save as many as you could. Yes, you are at personal risk picking them up, but how on earth would you live with yourself knowing you had left 50 men, women and children to die?
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Old 04-10-2014, 06:08   #33
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Who said: ".. our words reflect our attitudes and form attitudes of others..."?
...I tried to Google this citation, but couldn't find it.
If You can remember the author, may You be so kind to share?
Best regards
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Adele Mercier, a professor of philosophy at Queen’s University @ Kingston, Ontario, said something similar:
“The meanings of our words reflect our attitudes about the objects denoted by the words.”
Here ➥ Weighted words - Queen's Journal Mobile
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:46   #34
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Thank You Gord!
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:06   #35
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

In this day and age of the politically correct no matter what you do you're at risk, even making a comment in this forum. :-)

No mention in article if either boat was sail or power or if this skipper had crew.

"The conditions were gale force and the sea was constantly breaking over the bow", I'm not sure how this boat could put him at risk but I wasn't there. There also would be little he could do if he wanted to help aside from call for help.

If I were concerned about my welfare I'd err on the side of caution. If children were involved that would be a tough call but I like to think I'd die trying.

IMHO I sympathize with their plight but unless these 'illegal refugees' are really afraid for their life they should stay home. They are impacting the life of the people of whatever country they land in and not everyone wants to deal with that.

Like the system or not there are legal avenues for immigration.
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:14   #36
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pirate Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

95% of them would not qualify under the legal system.. that's why they do it.. been there and failed in some cases..
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Old 04-10-2014, 10:57   #37
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Adele Mercier, a professor of philosophy at Queen’s University @ Kingston, Ontario, said something similar:
“The meanings of our words reflect our attitudes about the objects denoted by the words.”
Here ➥ Weighted words - Queen's Journal Mobile
And the original quote was created by barnakiel as undersigned.

Some minds think alike.

Cheers,
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:16   #38
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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people smuggling is a crime ,report it to the authoraties.

the people who engage in smuggling do it for profit and have no regard for human life,they need stamping out like pirates.

if you find people in the water rescue them,but do not put yourself or your crew at risk if there are too many,drop your life raft up wind of them.
^ +1
From time to time we get a little news snip
As many as 700 migrants feared drowned in Mediterranean | Reuters

Think about, close to 3000 this year alone (three thousand) drowned, wow.

I wondered why we never talked about this here on CF; maybe because most are refugees (politics) ?

Martin
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:26   #39
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by CHAZ View Post
^ +1
From time to time we get a little news snip
As many as 700 migrants feared drowned in Mediterranean | Reuters

Think about, close to 3000 this year alone (three thousand) drowned, wow.

I wondered why we never talked about this here on CF; maybe because most are refugees (politics) ?

Martin
we did!No Go Zones
hats off to cf members "nornabrion" for being good Samaritans and saving refugees.

BBC News - British couple help stranded Syrian refugees to safety

,but you have to ask your self ,with the massive influx,over 10,000 a month into southern Europe.

how long before yachts become a target for traffickers for the use of clandestinely getting people in to Europe,or desperate people hijacking yachts and their crew to evade the authoraties.

BBC News - British couple help stranded Syrian refugees to safety
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:34   #40
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

How is this seamanship and not politics?

Mark, I agree with you as to "obligation" and as it was said a couple thousand years ago:
"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world. "
[Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:9; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a.]

The problem is, where do you draw the lines in the sand? There is one wealthy family that made the papers last month, I forget the name, but they've put a large motoryacht into use looking for refugees in need of aid in the Med. They're using their considerable resources to actively aid. Wouldn't the next logical step be...Why of course, we civilized westerners must go in and take over those repressive countries, and install proper civilization? Logic is how Kipling arrived at the idea of the "white man's burden" to civilize the savages in so many places. Look at how well that has ultimately [not] worked out in just about all those places.

I'm not suggesting that one walk away from a drowning man, although there certainly are some folks who certainly should be walked away from.

Just saying that the "obligation" is not simple, not clearly delimited, and...really is a matter of politics, not seamanship at all.

Now, how to stow the maximum number of refugees safely onboard your vessel for a Med crossing in rough weather, that would be a matter of seamanship. Which, when last seen, was being done well enough by the skipper of that overloaded boat. His motives might be all wrong, but then again, he might be saving lives.
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Old 04-10-2014, 14:36   #41
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

If they are breaking the law and are in the water they are also in need of a boat. Taking them onboard could open yourself and your crew to being thrown in the water and giving them the means to continue. I say call CG and stay on scene till they arrive and assist as needed.
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Old 04-10-2014, 14:44   #42
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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If they are breaking the law and are in the water they are also in need of a boat. Taking them onboard could open yourself and your crew to being thrown in the water and giving them the means to continue. I say call CG and stay on scene till they arrive and assist as needed.
So 50 men, women and children are in the water. Gale force conditions. Coastguard at best is probably hours away (this is not the US coast) and you advocate standing by?
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Old 04-10-2014, 14:59   #43
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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So 50 men, women and children are in the water. Gale force conditions. Coastguard at best is probably hours away (this is not the US coast) and you advocate standing by?
as I said before drop your life raft up wind of them,trying to pick up 50 people in any conditions is going to put yourself and your crew at risk.

as the skipper "YOUR" number one concern is the safety of "YOUR"crew,50 people will swamp a small yacht
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Old 04-10-2014, 15:10   #44
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

What atoll says. 50 people on my boat would probably swamp me or turn me over.
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Old 04-10-2014, 15:26   #45
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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as I said before drop your life raft up wind of them,trying to pick up 50 people in any conditions is going to put yourself and your crew at risk.

as the skipper "YOUR" number one concern is the safety of "YOUR"crew,50 people will swamp a small yacht
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What atoll says. 50 people on my boat would probably swamp me or turn me over.
So, you drop you liferaft. How many will reach it and how many will it hold?

Guys, are you really saying that there are people in the water around you and they will drown if you do nothing and you don't want to put yourself at any risk? You would make no attempt to save any of them?

By the way, you would actually have no hope of saving very many anyway, hauling people on board in those conditions is no easy task. They are unlikely to have decent lifejackets. Not all will be strong swimmers. They will quickly disappear out of sight if conditions are bad.

To make no attempt to bring any of them on board is just appalling.
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