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Old 14-10-2014, 09:35   #151
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

What's that old term - think globally, act locally.

My personal feelings on immigration are not as important as the life of the folks right in front of you. The folks are probably desperate illegal immigrants trying to get the heck out of their country - a place with few opportunities - and to a place of....opportunity.

The immigration issue in the US is a mess. Both sides have their reasons for wanting more immigrants but both sides are also playing on the fears of their core supporters - in many cases these views are in conflict with each sides public stances. The main issue for me is that the US has, in the past, greatly benefitted from immigration - whether it is from unskilled poorly educated laborers or from more skilled folks. The historical record is clear on that. The same is true now, IMO. Immigration should be expanded liberals won't support it, because those folks would likely be in competition for unskilled labor jobs which is a threat to union members. Immigration should be expanded but isn't, because business interests want low wage workers but conservatives don't want a large influx of immigrants who most often vote for liberals. Illegal immigrants make for great headlines for both sides of the argument. The liberals can say conservatives don't care about the little minority children and the conservatives can say the liberals don't care about the rule of law. It is all quite cynical on both sides of the argument.

However, when the folks are in distress right in front of you - you will do what you can without endangering your vessel or crew. Nothing else matters when on the open sea.
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Old 14-10-2014, 09:37   #152
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Mary Ann - no doubt about it.
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Old 14-10-2014, 09:38   #153
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Perhaps I missed it because this thread got sidetracked so much I skipped quite a few pages, But why not radio the other boat and see if they need assistance?
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Old 14-10-2014, 09:40   #154
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

It was discussed. Actually, you didn't miss much.
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Old 14-10-2014, 09:41   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
Mary Ann - no doubt about it.
I am so torn. Why must we choose?
Ginger, No wait Mary ann! No....
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Old 14-10-2014, 10:02   #156
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Considering the probability that once the vessel is close enough to land, all who are able will go over the side and attempt to disappear into the night somewhere in Europe and join the masses of refugees who are committed to a life of crime, terrorism and worse, I would let the authorities know where they are and leave the area as quickly as weather and conditions permitted. Undocumented refugees from the shores of North Africa are doing everything possible to gain access to the European side and bring disease, religious ideology and rock bottom ethical and behavior problems to the continent. Think of the Southern US border problems the illegals visit on the US and multiply that by 10 and you get some idea of what these folks bring to Europe. Greece and Italy are the gateway to Europe for the people who are fleeing in ever increasing numbers.
My advice is to leave 'em and let the European authorities deal with the problem. Phil
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Old 14-10-2014, 10:35   #157
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

When immigration laws are too strict, folks will break the law to get in. However, each state has a right to control who gets in. Each state also has a duty to control who gets in. If the laws are too strict, then folks will get in illegally and you have little knowledge of who they are or what they are doing. There can also be little in the way of assimilation so that illegal immigrants are living a shadow life, not part of the nation and culture where they are living and no benefit is seen to becoming a part of that culture and nation. This is a crucial part of the failure of so many European countries which encouraged folks to come but didn't embrace them and expect them to assimilate.

In the current climate, many folks don't want to be seen as lacking sympathy so they want to turn a blind eye and support open borders - this is a mistake.

Again, little of this matters when you meet someone on open water who appears to be in distress. Your duty as a fellow mariner is clear - render assistance so long as it doesn't hazard your vessel or crew.
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Old 14-10-2014, 12:16   #158
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

Here in the U.S., the illegal immigrants have the same statistical chance of being criminals as our own, homegrown winners, like the Crips and the Bloods.

Statements that illegal immigrants are all criminals always make me laugh, particularly when coming from the descendant of a foreign invader.

"We're in, shut the door!"
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Old 14-10-2014, 12:18   #159
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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I deeply hate criminals and I'll do everything I can to keep them as far as possible from me and my family
Transportation to the colonies used to work......
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Old 14-10-2014, 12:38   #160
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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I'm not racist (def:a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another), but I deeply hate criminals and I'll do everything I can to keep them as far as possible from me and my family
You're aware that one has nothing to do with the other, right? And yet, somehow, in your mind, you felt the need to mention both.

"Hating criminals" would include hating women who attend school in the Middle East, as well as women who dare to talk to men without their husband's permission or without a burkha.

I don't believe for a second that you can even differentiate between criminals and law abiding citizens around the world, because that would involve understanding every criminal code in the world.

It would also involve choosing between contradictory laws. For example, gun laws in England and gun laws in the United States. When something is perfectly legal in one political system and illegal in another, tell me, who do you hate? Does who you hate change based on your geographical location? That would be a rather flexible system of hatred, if you ask me.

So what your statement boils down to, if studied critically, is that you claim you hate people who break any law, (that's the definition of "criminal") but since you don't understand every law, (no one does, no one can) and since laws directly contradict each other, that means you just sort of spew this undefined ball of general hatred around.

And that goes a long ways towards explaining why you feel it necessary to defend yourself against unleveled charges of racism.
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Old 14-10-2014, 12:44   #161
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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You're aware that one has nothing to do with the other, right? And yet, somehow, in your mind, you felt the need to mention both.

"Hating criminals" would include hating women who attend school in the Middle East, women who dare to go outside without their husband's permission or without a burkha.

I don't believe for a second that you can even differentiate between criminals and law abiding citizens around the world, because that would involve understanding every criminal code in the world.

So what your statement boils down to, if studied critically, is that you claim you hate people who break any law, but since you don't understand every law, (no one does, no one can) that means you just sort of spew this undefined ball of general hatred around.

And that goes a long ways towards explaining why you feel it necessary to defend yourself against unleveled charges of racism.
I think as ebola becomes more widespread lines are going to become very blurred,with every person of African origin being suspect,which is a great shame as race relations in Europe have never been better,but there are many factions that would like to see otherwise
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Old 14-10-2014, 12:53   #162
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

I don't mind blurred lines.

Blind adherence to the law simply because it's the law does not have a good track record, anywhere in the world.

The thread is about morality, and the moral goal is not law and order, the moral goal is justice, even if we have to dispense with law and order to get there.

A citizen's duty is to constantly examine every word, every comma, every decision of his/her government, and insist, to the limits of his/her conscience, that the government remain moral.

To bring it back to an overloaded boat, the law, any law, would not be one of my considerations.
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Old 14-10-2014, 22:59   #163
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Here in the U.S., the illegal immigrants have the same statistical chance of being criminals as our own, homegrown winners, like the Crips and the Bloods.

Statements that illegal immigrants are all criminals always make me laugh, particularly when coming from the descendant of a foreign invader.

"We're in, shut the door!"
@Jammer, if this comment is referred to me, my comments were referred to Europe where I'm pretty familiar with what illegal immigrants end up doing, specially in a economic time like this decade. I have no idea and no comment for the US. I'm an immigrant, but I did it legally, I'm paying my fair share of taxes and creating jobs for other american residents. I'll always shut the door to people trying to do it illegally, and I'm glad that door was shut when it was my turn.

Quote:
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You're aware that one has nothing to do with the other, right? And yet, somehow, in your mind, you felt the need to mention both.

"Hating criminals" would include hating women who attend school in the Middle East, as well as women who dare to talk to men without their husband's permission or without a burkha.

I don't believe for a second that you can even differentiate between criminals and law abiding citizens around the world, because that would involve understanding every criminal code in the world.

It would also involve choosing between contradictory laws. For example, gun laws in England and gun laws in the United States. When something is perfectly legal in one political system and illegal in another, tell me, who do you hate? Does who you hate change based on your geographical location? That would be a rather flexible system of hatred, if you ask me.

So what your statement boils down to, if studied critically, is that you claim you hate people who break any law, (that's the definition of "criminal") but since you don't understand every law, (no one does, no one can) and since laws directly contradict each other, that means you just sort of spew this undefined ball of general hatred around.

And that goes a long ways towards explaining why you feel it necessary to defend yourself against unleveled charges of racism.
@Jammer, they have a lot to do with each other as for many unskilled illegal immigrant the only job they will be able to find to pay for their food is steal and other criminal activities.
Your argument on middle east having different laws does not stand, as I've nothing against women not wearing a burkha or anything else you mentioned. I'm complaining of people who steal (is this legal somewhere and subjective?)

I don't want to get into a philosophical debate on what's right and what's wrong, there are several activities that are clearly wrong from any point of view, stealing, robbing, assaulting, raping, etc. This is what illegal immigration brings to Europe and this is what I hate.
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Old 14-10-2014, 23:29   #164
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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There are two types of men in the world: Ginger men and Mary Ann men.

Personally, I'm a hard-core Mary Ann man.
Perhaps if we asked the professor his solution at this point?

P.S. I've always had a thing for red heads. Ginger. Definitely. And half of Cruisers Forum doesn't have a clue what we are referencing.
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Old 15-10-2014, 00:28   #165
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Re: Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

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@Rustic Charm, please read the articles you post before making incorrect statements.

The article you posted states that out of 450,000 refugees asking for asylum only 131,000 (~30%) are eventually granted it or let stay legally in Europe. The first number accounts for the people asking for it, which is a good proxy for the number of arrested illegal immigrants.

The remaining 319,000 illegal immigrants, cost lots of money to the European government and have a high probability of escaping custody, becoming criminals and increasing the burden to society.

I'm not racist (def:a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another), but I deeply hate criminals and I'll do everything I can to keep them as far as possible from me and my family
30%? 131 000 da. But to you that is zero to you there 'all' illegals who become criminals.

I love your statement, 'I'm not a racist ..... But' There's that BUT.

AND your suggestion that the remaining 319 000 are illegal, let alone 'criminals' is simply false. They made applications, which were not accepted. This does not then make then Illegal or criminals!
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