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Old 22-11-2012, 13:17   #106
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Originally Posted by Mambo


HAPPY THANKSGIVING - we are lucky to be yapping about sailboats, eh?

-M

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Old 22-11-2012, 13:20   #107
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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup
better late than never! (I didn't notice this thread at the time it was current)

(my underlining)

Having done this a couple of times under storm trisail in the Southern Ocean on an '80s purpose-built RTW maxi (78', 38T, shallow draft canoe body, fin keel), I was surprised to find on each occasion that we could leave the boat to her own devices (no-one even on deck, let alone on the helm). You'd think there would be considerable risk of being put about.

It was certainly nowhere near a survival situation (prolonged F9 acting over a considerable fetch, deep water, no strong current) but bad enough to justify the considerable effort of handing and flaking the 250kg (bolt-rope) mainsail and lashing the 250kg boom.

I'm not sure how well this would scale down to a smaller boat of similar underwater configuration, though.
That's interesting. I think a lot has to do with windage, most modern boats have high freeboard and considerable cabintop. Whereas the racing boats are often the exact opposite. I think that has a major bearing. The problem bring in small boats is they lie too close to beam on to be safe ( even though they are technically hove to)

Dave
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Old 22-11-2012, 14:55   #108
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That's interesting. I think a lot has to do with windage, most modern boats have high freeboard and considerable cabintop. Whereas the racing boats are often the exact opposite. I think that has a major bearing. The problem bring in small boats is they lie too close to beam on to be safe ( even though they are technically hove to)

Dave
The quote isn't about heaving to, but about fore-reaching, I think. With a reefed main amidships and no foresail, windvane set for a bit higher than close hauled. The wind pushes the bow down, the boat gains some speed and some weather helm, causing it to come up and lose speed. Repeat.

Sounds very good in theory, especially near a lee shore. I'd been told it works very well on a modern fin keel (Beth Leonard advocates it). I haven't tried it myself.
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Old 22-11-2012, 15:44   #109
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Hmmm.... we weren't making perceptible headway, at least, no more than on other occasions on the same vessel when hove to with backed headsail.

The intention certainly was heaving to, rather than fore-reaching or jogging.

Unfortunately the only speed transducers were doppler effect, not much use hove to, but from observation of the surface foam we were lying quietly.

We were certainly not oscillating between sailing and rounding up, but at some sort of stable equilibrium, and there was no windvane; helm lashed.

In my experience on a range of vessels such oscillations tend to be more pronounced at lower wind strengths; even then they can usually be minimised if suitable sail config, helm angle and attitude are adopted.

I agree that moderate freeboard and lack of windage (particularly forward) are highly beneficial. To me it's one of the showstopping design aspects of modern mass-produced sailing vessels, aimed at the charter or marina-based markets.
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Old 22-11-2012, 17:49   #110
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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I agree that moderate freeboard and lack of windage (particularly forward) are highly beneficial.
One thing that makes modern boats very different than the Pardey's boats, and other older designs, is the roller furling jibs right out on the bow. Even when furled that is a substantial amount of windage right at the forward end. I have been amazed at the difference in how my boats ride at anchor comparing them with rolled jib and without. I think this factor along with cutaway underbodies and generally a lot of windage above the waterline makes modern designs more likely to be manageable using drogues or running off, or even forereaching. It is very hard to get a boat with rolled jib to balance in a true hove to position in gusty conditions.
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Old 22-11-2012, 19:24   #111
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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OK, read through a lot here just to get my head right before another passage...you know, making sure I am properly cynical and paranoid before shaking out.

Here are my assumptions:

Heaving to does not mean just backing the jib and lashing the helm. It means getting your bow to wind to ride a storm.

If I deploy a sea-anchor of appropriate size, I am done with any other options that do not involve a pocket knife and a quick scuttle back to the helm in the slop.


A sea anchor restricts leeward motion. A hove to boat (sparsail and backed staysail) has forward/lateral motion.

Drogues become sea-anchors if you have enough of them, but usually they are bad ones.

Gang drogues are a method of dampening shock loads by using a series of very small elements more than a method of adding more slowing power. They may be part of a nice modular system that can be scaled to the boat size though.

I have never tried lying ahull in any kind of seas, but having been on a DIW ship in slop many times, I would not care to try. I'll leave that to the life-boaters.

Anywho, thanks for the nifty (old) thread. Gets the paranoia pumped real good. I am going to go pretty up some gaskets for lashing my boom and gaff to the deck, and get that head cut off that goofy old marconi main for a trysail. My second set of reef points will make good gaskets. They are a joke. I have never, ever been able to go from reef 2 to reef 3. Reef 1 to reef 3, yes. After number 2, sail handling options seem to get restrained!

Assume that you are serious about options. I suggest you follow up on 'STORM TACTICS' by Lynn & Larry Pardey. There are YouTube previews, a video and a paper back book. We bought the book after listening to their lecture at a boat show. I re-read it as a refresher from time to time. Well worth the 15 bucks. If your boat geometry and sea conditions permit, also add "Fore-Reaching" to your tactics. It is easier on the rig than Hove to and less dangerous than deploying (and retrieving) a drogue or sea anchor. It also generally gets you away from the storm faster and you can recover from it and continue sailing very easily.

Amazon.com: pardey storm tactics
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Old 23-11-2012, 17:54   #112
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I always find it interesting on threads like this when people open up a post with words like "i think...", especially when they follow that opening with the next paragraph stating that they are not speaking from personal experience and then they continue with the next great phrase,

"I know, but..."

This specific realm that this thread covers is not a land of opinions and feelings, it is a land of science and experiences.

What works, works. It doesnt work cause its traditional or in a special book by a special author, it works because it is based in seamenship and understanding of the mechanics of a given hull and sailplan amd the tools available on that given boat.

To say there is one way or one technique for all hulls is foolish. To say that there is a best way for a given boat is wise and comes from experience.

I find it confusing that this thread is argued by so many whose debating position is not based in experience but textbooks and fear, it is this "bluewater fear" Bash speaks about that keeps so many on the dock long after they would likely be well ready to sail.
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Old 23-11-2012, 18:23   #113
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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To say there is one way or one technique for all hulls is foolish. To say that there is a best way for a given boat is wise and comes from experience.
I think (your least favorite words) it is a bit more complicated than that. You can read about the varied experiences of people and boats in the same storm, ending up with highly varied results. I've got most of the books, and it is interesting to read how in the same storm one boat runs off, another is on a sea anchor, another is on a drogue, someone else is fore reaching, someone tries heaving to, etc. Active techniques are the current vogue, yet folks still get into trouble, including some very experienced and heavily crewed boats in races like the Sydney Hobart.

From a cruiser's perspective, the active technique is often all you need, because most of us avoid the really bad stuff. But, when you are in the really bad stuff there is only so long one or two people can continue to hand steer a boat, and it is not always safe out there in the cockpit. Sometimes the autopilot can do it, but sometimes not. So, I do think (there I go again) that it is useful to have something in your arsenal that can take over and manage the boat when you no longer can due to fatigue, injury, damage, or severity of the weather. That's why I still like to sail with a drogue or parachute. I have used them in both severe weather, and to take care of the boat while I was recuperating or repairing damage (to the steering in my case). They worked great. It is useful to have several tools in your arsenal for different situations.
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Old 23-11-2012, 19:11   #114
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Here is something else for thought/comment?

I have heard (not done, tried, or recommend) That hanging a pillow soaked with oil over the windward side will make the "slick" even more effective by making, yes, a real slick.
Anyone??

mm
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Old 23-11-2012, 20:17   #115
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The pillow is better used in the bunk as buffer against the hull. If your really thinking this is so bad I'm soaking my pillow in oil and throwing it over board your way over anything I have seen.
Never crossed my mind to use a pillow as a storm tactic. The bad **** I have been in throwing oil would have done little for a very short time. Drogue or run off is my choice. If that fails maybe I will throw a oil soaked pillow overboard with an effigy of Poseidon for good measure.
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Old 23-11-2012, 21:09   #116
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Ya!! Searched online but could find no reference to this. I believe I first heard it from an "old salt" at uscg aux class about 25 yrs. ago.
Reminds of the bahama penny/shark oil solution for too much wind.
Fortunately, I've never been in a situation where I needed something like a sea anchor or drouge. Been "hove to" many times though.

anybody else??

mm
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Old 23-11-2012, 21:31   #117
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by mangomuffins View Post
Ya!! Searched online but could find no reference to this. I believe I first heard it from an "old salt" at uscg aux class about 25 yrs. ago.
Reminds of the bahama penny/shark oil solution for too much wind.
Fortunately, I've never been in a situation where I needed something like a sea anchor or drouge. Been "hove to" many times though.

anybody else??

mm
Read the old books (online searches will come up short I imagine). I don't know how effective it truly was, but oil into the lee of a boat laying a-hull was one of the often repeated last ditch storm tactics.
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Old 24-11-2012, 00:19   #118
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Let me help you with that Google search: "Oil on troubled waters" gives about 3,520,000 results (0.28 seconds)
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Old 25-11-2012, 01:23   #119
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Storm oil can reportedly be a mixed blessing even in those cases where it has (subjectively) helped.

If you can dispense enough of it in the right place you might end up with some of it coming back on board.

Even if the waves don't break due to increased surface tension, there's still the wind to shred it off the crests and chuck it at the boat. I'd rather chance the odd breaking crest than have a skating rink for a deck, personally.
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Old 25-11-2012, 01:44   #120
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

As far as the 'expert-led masterclasses' on storm tactics are concerned, I think there's a problem with commercial imperatives.

In order to sell a product, it's necessary to give it a distinctive brand, and if the product is a set of tactics, the prescription needs to be persuasive and coherent.

Persuasiveness comes from experience, which is hard to come by in sufficient quantity, in regard to conditions which are so rarely encountered.

Moreover, most of the people who have this level of experience have strong feelings about what sort of boat to cross oceans with, so their advice is contingent on your belonging to the same school as them.

To be commercially successful, I think a set of tactics needs also to be coherent and compact. I mentioned above that they also need to be distinctive. All of this pushes a vendor into simplifying the method and overstating the applicability and effectiveness.

I'm always more impressed by those who will not do this than by those who routinely do.

These books are a bit like a cure for a disease which the patient may never suffer.

And if they do and the cure doesn't work, they're not going to come back demanding a refund.
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