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Old 22-11-2012, 10:10   #91
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Hey! What do you know? I have worked on a PDQ32 after some storms here in...what was it...2005? Seemed awful heavy for a catamaran. Only multihull I ever built was a cold molded 55' thing. Low, light, and just shy of standing headroom in the salon. Seemed like it had the speed to avoid weather in some cases. My multihull experience centers around Hobies and home-builts made for playing on the Lagoonas and surf. Can't imagine losing one leg of a drogue bridle in a breaking seas in a multihull. Seems like a good way to trip a hull. Overall, I am just now getting old enough to be resentful of the idea of taking on a new discipline, and re-learning everything all over again in violent situations gives me the opinion that I should pass up learning anything about handling multihulls beyond the jetties.
Catamarans are one thing, Cat sailing is another. A wishbone cat really IS a nice heavy weather rig. A friendship sloop rig like mine very nearly is a cat boat in some situations.
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Old 22-11-2012, 10:21   #92
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by Aethelwulffe View Post
OK, read through a lot here just to get my head right before another passage...you know, making sure I am properly cynical and paranoid before shaking out.

Here are my assumptions:

Heaving to does not mean just backing the jib and lashing the helm. It means getting your bow to wind to ride a storm. You are hove-to if you have minimized motion and maximized sea keeping by bringing your bow as directly into the seas as you can and not charging up into them. Shackelton's mizzen a.....................edited..............reef 3, yes. After number 2, sail handling options seem to get restrained!
Heaving to usually means the boat is making some headway, often maybe 1 knot with the bow somewhat up into the waves. With a drogue deployed from the bow to keep the head up, and the boat moving , you would be pulling it alongside to do so...
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Old 22-11-2012, 10:48   #93
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Heaving to usually means the boat is making some headway, often maybe 1 knot with the bow somewhat up into the waves. With a drogue deployed from the bow to keep the head up, and the boat moving , you would be pulling it alongside to do so...
Just to be clear (because there is so much confusion around definitions in these discussions), the big advocates of heaving to as a storm tactic would disagree with your statement above. If you are making any headway then you are sailing out f the protective slick formed when properly hove-to. What you are describing is called by some "fore-reaching". The Pardeys and others pretty much describe fore-reaching as the enemy of those seeking to heave-to. They talk about wetting paper-towels and going on deck and tossing them overboard to see whether they drift directly to windward. I believe the Pardeys would describe "properly hove-to" as whatever technique puts the bow @ 50' off the wind with the boat drifting *directly downwind* and making *no headway*.
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Old 22-11-2012, 11:08   #94
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

I well agree that heaving to has different meanings/methodologies. Heaving to with sail trim is done by backing the jib on a sloop, and there are many other ways of getting your butt away from the waves. As far as someone saying that you are making no way when heave-to with ANY of these methods, they are in skinny water. Tell it to the Marines. All the talk of slicks performing in such and such a way etc.. tends to go bye-bye when out among any of the following:
Sargasso beds, current confluents/thermocline surface breaks, converging wave patterns...onandonandon. Nothing to base a general rule of thumb on, merely something to know how to take advantage of when it presents itself as workable.

I think that the "protective slick" issue is more one of how much green water typically will visit your deck from a breaking wave. If the crew mans the helm and has a minimal stablizing rig set up, they can (with onerous effort) optimize the boat trim to the waves with every crest, much as you have to when running. If you keep the mass out of your bow and stern, a LOT of things work better. If you try the same tactics with and without light ends, you may find a serious difference. Some people never really look to mass distribution as their foremost seakeeping tool.
I'll keep my rudder attached, my cloth-goods out of the water, and some steerage way in any situation that permits. Drogues are great if you need to go down wind anyway, 'cause a pocket knife can let you leave them far behind right quick if need be.
Tell you what though: if you are in deep water and a favorable current, and need to keep off a lee shore after you have lost your paddle, it sure would be nice to have a sea-anchor as a parachute!
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Old 22-11-2012, 11:39   #95
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It is IMHO, useless to keep quoting the Pardys experience. Their experience is specific to them and the particular type of boat. A engineless, small traditional heavy wooden long keeler, that was very overbuilt, Most modern fin keelers struggle to heave to properly ,, ie with the bow around 60 degrees to the wind.

Almost all modern vessels vessels will sail of the cabin top, the dodgers and spray hood etc, hence most actually forereach, some alarmingly so. Few heave to properly in any seaway. ( and its the waves that are the problem not the wind) in any large storm, especially with a frontal passage , there is often two of more conflicting wave train directions ( or that nasty right angle wave in the trough problem) enivitably a hove to boat gets thrown through the wind and then isn't hove to any more.

One technique not mentioned is jogging, ie forereaching under very reduced sail with engine assistance. Most modern vessels have good reliable low consumption diesels. Powered forereaching under low rpm power, can often be done with the autopilot in control. This points the strongest bit at the sea, allows the crew to rest ( ie not actively steering ) and the motion of the boat can be reduced. I've found it a very successful survival tactic. It also prevents you from loosing sea room if thats an issue. It protects the rudder, provide bite when in the troughs and not too much power when on the wave top. Charges your batteries too. ( obviously you have to have some diesel )

Dave
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Old 22-11-2012, 11:53   #96
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Four points: 1. Different boats behave differently with different equipment in different conditions. 2. Speculation on how something will behave on your boat is all well and good, but in the harsh real world of a storm often things are quite different than in theory. 3. A single technique utilizing a single piece of equipment is not appropriate for every situation. 4. It is almost impossible to practice this until you are actually in it, because the wind, waves, forces, etc. are so out of proportion to the practice situation. Reading the literature, a very high proportion of storm accounts include failures of technique, equipment, and theory.
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:00   #97
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Four points: 1. Different boats behave differently with different equipment in different conditions. 2. Speculation on how something will behave on your boat is all well and good, but in the harsh real world of a storm often things are quite different than in theory. 3. A single technique utilizing a single piece of equipment is not appropriate for every situation. 4. It is almost impossible to practice this until you are actually in it, because the wind, waves, forces, etc. are so out of proportion to the practice situation. Reading the literature, a very high proportion of storm accounts include failures of technique, equipment, and theory.
You tell 'em Man!
It's all wonk-wonk. I have never had a "prepared" tactic for when the ship hit the flam. My prepared tactics involve tool bags, bowlines, and a supplementary adrenal gland. It's a jury rig every time, 'cause you are never fighting the last war.
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:07   #98
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

I don't know why mentioning the Pardeys to clarify the difference between fore-reaching and heaving-to gets some folks Irish-up It is a useful distinction, no?
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:09   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo
I don't know why mentioning the Pardeys to clarify the difference between fore-reaching and heaving-to gets some folks Irish-up It is a useful distinction, no?
No merely quoting what they regard as " hove to" isn't really useful.

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Old 22-11-2012, 12:12   #100
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Four points: 1. Different boats behave differently with different equipment in different conditions. 2. Speculation on how something will behave on your boat is all well and good, but in the harsh real world of a storm often things are quite different than in theory. 3. A single technique utilizing a single piece of equipment is not appropriate for every situation. 4. It is almost impossible to practice this until you are actually in it, because the wind, waves, forces, etc. are so out of proportion to the practice situation. Reading the literature, a very high proportion of storm accounts include failures of technique, equipment, and theory.
But we read the literature nonetheless. It is what you can do. And if it give you that one more tool or piece of understanding which you need . . .. I'd rather read Pardey, Dashew, Roth, Coles, Moitessier, etc than follow (often misleading) distillations of them on the forums. What the best forums add are little supplements (like the comment above about the importance of weight management). That's my takeaway at least.
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:19   #101
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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No merely quoting what they regard as " hove to" isn't really useful.

Dave
Seriously? Did you read the preceding post? It said "when you are hove to" you are generally making as much as 1 knot forward progress". A discussion that doesn't distinguished between boats doing two different things is meaningless at best.

I still think that what got you tweeked was saying "Pardey". Personally I think they add a huge amount to pool of storm tactics knowledge and I disagree broadly with your conclusions about its applicablity -- but as has been pointed out in a couple of successive posts -- this isn't about dogma so lets leave that debate for another day.
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:20   #102
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by Aethelwulffe View Post
Hey! What do you know? I have worked on a PDQ32 after some storms here in...what was it...2005? Seemed awful heavy for a catamaran. Only multihull I ever built was a cold molded 55' thing. Low, light, and just shy of standing headroom in the salon. Seemed like it had the speed to avoid weather in some cases. My multihull experience centers around Hobies and home-builts made for playing on the Lagoonas and surf. Can't imagine losing one leg of a drogue bridle in a breaking seas in a multihull. Seems like a good way to trip a hull. Overall, I am just now getting old enough to be resentful of the idea of taking on a new discipline, and re-learning everything all over again in violent situations gives me the opinion that I should pass up learning anything about handling multihulls beyond the jetties.
Catamarans are one thing, Cat sailing is another. A wishbone cat really IS a nice heavy weather rig. A friendship sloop rig like mine very nearly is a cat boat in some situations.
You have talked around an interesting point for multihulls; weight matters.

Too light and there is a big focus on the wind under the bridge deck/tramps. Too heavy and digging in a bow is more of an issue (I'm talking bare poles--powered up is different). The PDQ is faster and lighter than some, and heavier than some simple cruisers and pure racing machines.

Loose a leg? It seems it would be simple to rig a new pair and cut away the old leg. Since each leg should be sized to take the whole load (off-axis strikes) the risk is not exceptional. As for tripping, minimal if you're still slowed down, for the short time with one leg. In fact, the extra beam of a cat makes drogues and sea anchors far more effective, but that's off topic; multis and monos are more different in a storm than in fine weather.
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:34   #103
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Originally Posted by Mambo

Seriously? Did you read the preceding post? It said "when you are hove to" you are generally making as much as 1 knot forward progress". A discussion that doesn't distinguished between boats doing two different things is meaningless at best.

I still think that what got you tweeked was saying "Pardey". Personally I think they add a huge amount to pool of storm tactics knowledge and I disagree broadly with your conclusions about its applicablity -- but as has been pointed out in a couple of successive posts -- this isn't about dogma so lets leave that debate for another day.
You miss my point. The Pardys stressed that hove to their boat had no forward travel. In heavy full keelers with little cabin top, you get the best attempt at hove to.

But that's " their" definition of hove to. It's not " the " definition. Nor is the often quoting their experiences of storm survival techniques . For example I don't beleive sea anchors have any role in modern production yachts.

They, like others , have contributed their experiences, that's all. Anyone with significant ocean mileage has their techniques and experiences , though the majority don't write books.

I'm not disparaging the Pardys, merely commenting on the use of " peer group knowledge" and extrapolating it into areas ( vessels) where it doesn't really fit.

The one thing I've learned about storm survival techniques is that is that its extremely individualistic, you simply cannot generalise, merely the crews competency of just their performance under pressure can be a major determint in what techniques can be applied and how effective it is.

Dave
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Old 22-11-2012, 12:49   #104
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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You miss my point. The Pardys stressed that hove to their boat had no forward travel. In heavy full keelers with little cabin top, you get the best attempt at hove to.

But that's " their" definition of hove to. It's not " the " definition. Nor is the often quoting their experiences of storm survival techniques . For example I don't beleive sea anchors have any role in modern production yachts.

They, like others , have contributed their experiences, that's all. Anyone with significant ocean mileage has their techniques and experiences , though the majority don't write books.

I'm not disparaging the Pardys, merely commenting on the use of " peer group knowledge" and extrapolating it into areas ( vessels) where it doesn't really fit.

The one thing I've learned about storm survival techniques is that is that its extremely individualistic, you simply cannot generalise, merely the crews competency of just their performance under pressure can be a major determint in what techniques can be applied and how effective it is.

Dave
Fair enough. Two quick comments (and then off to turkey dinner I must go).

First, although my boat is not wood overly heavy for a cruiser or (to my mind outdated) it does looks more like the Pardeys boat than a light displacement fin keeler, so that may explain some of the difference in our views. I think the Pardeys and others such as Morgan's Cloud would argue that the techniques are applicable to a range of more modern designs. But, I will leave that to them. I really think it is valuable to read primary sources when it comes to informing ourselves about storm tactics.

The second is really the first point I was making and it is purely definitional. We have a term for sailing slowly forward: fore-reaching. With that in mind, and because boats which are making way into breaking waters will be (no pun intended) impacted differently than will a boat making 1/2 to 1kn leeway, I find the definitional distinction useful. Just as importantly, there are numerous threads on this subject which have fallen apart (become either useless or sources of bad information) around this very point of confusion. My point was simply to try to give us a clearer way to move the discussion forward.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING - we are lucky to be yapping about sailboats, eh?

-M
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Old 22-11-2012, 13:13   #105
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

better late than never! (I didn't notice this thread at the time it was current)

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We attended the lecture by John and Amanda Neal at the Chicago All Sail show in January...... "Fore-Reaching" This appeals for us. You set the main triple reefed main or storm trisail close hauled. Lock the helm. If the bow falls to leeward the main brings you back up.... No danger of a gibe. It works for full keel type boats
but is ill-advised for flat-bottom fin-keels unless you help hand steer.....
(my underlining)

Having done this a couple of times under storm trisail in the Southern Ocean on an '80s purpose-built RTW maxi (78', 38T, shallow draft canoe body, fin keel), I was surprised to find on each occasion that we could leave the boat to her own devices (no-one even on deck, let alone on the helm). You'd think there would be considerable risk of being put about.

It was certainly nowhere near a survival situation (prolonged F9 acting over a considerable fetch, deep water, no strong current) but bad enough to justify the considerable effort of handing and flaking the 250kg (bolt-rope) mainsail and lashing the 250kg boom.

I'm not sure how well this would scale down to a smaller boat of similar underwater configuration, though.
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