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Old 17-02-2012, 16:43   #76
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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It's fairly basic. Start with a reefed main alone, with the sail

Fin-keeled boats will actually forereach quite high. This is one area where a fin-keeled boat with in-mast furling excels. Control the size of the main so that the boat just begins to develop weather helm after a stall. You don't need much sail out to do this in high winds. It's really quit comfortable.

Interesting, Neals book says Fore-Reaching is easier to manage in full keel boats than fin keel. The truth here is that there is no uniform answeer and every boat has its personality in this. Neals say (on a boat that can self-tend) that you run the main/trisail close hauled; no jib. fiddle with the locked position of the helm and you may not need to touch anything for hours. Boat points up, stalls, fall off, repeat. If it works for you - great!

Neils also say to learn your storm tactics in 30 - 40 knot winds so you are not experimenting in the face of a real storm. On an asside, most successful blue water cruisers also tell you they rarely have to do any of this because they look for weather windows and stay away from trouble, don't leave the shelter in the face of impending trouble. The best way to make sure you will need this is if you follow a schedule. Try to keep it a boat ride on your own terms.
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Old 18-02-2012, 11:00   #77
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

i own a series drogue but have never deployed it. reading of the effort required to get it in i've wondered if anyone has ever streamed a pick-up buoy - on say 500ft of light line - from the end of the chain/weight.

i've tried to visualise what problems this might cause but am interested in what others think. is this do-able or would it somehow reduce the effectiveness of the drogue ?

i was thinking of something like a lightweight spar bouy (think "danbuoy") with it's own v small single cone drogue (same size as one of the series drogue's cones) to stop it overshooting the series drogue. this single cone would be rigged just ahead of the pick-up buoy on the light line connecting it to the main drogue.

what i read is the series drogue allows the boat to make 1 1/2 knots or thereabouts so the whole arrangement should, hopefully , stream in a line
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Old 18-02-2012, 18:19   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsadler
i own a series drogue but have never deployed it. reading of the effort required to get it in i've wondered if anyone has ever streamed a pick-up buoy - on say 500ft of light line - from the end of the chain/weight.

i've tried to visualise what problems this might cause but am interested in what others think. is this do-able or would it somehow reduce the effectiveness of the drogue ?

i was thinking of something like a lightweight spar bouy (think "danbuoy") with it's own v small single cone drogue (same size as one of the series drogue's cones) to stop it overshooting the series drogue. this single cone would be rigged just ahead of the pick-up buoy on the light line connecting it to the main drogue.

what i read is the series drogue allows the boat to make 1 1/2 knots or thereabouts so the whole arrangement should, hopefully , stream in a line
Do you mean that you go back to get the pickup buoy. What's the point of the buoy behind you. Remember when recovering a drogue the seas are still very high , you don't want to be turning into it to recover the buoy.
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Old 19-02-2012, 01:27   #79
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

gbn: yes, that's what i meant. i guess practicality depends on how long you're willing to wait for seas to subside.
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Old 19-02-2012, 09:17   #80
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

There are a lot of sites you can find using Google to see how people use and retreive the series drogue. Its easier to retreive than most devices but one or two people alone will still have a time of it getting the thing back. I even found a few videos on Youtube. Check out the info on the Sailrite site. You can buy a kit there as well. You will find information on the sailnet on this too.
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Old 26-02-2012, 21:37   #81
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

what was the name of that english man that was going to the south pole stayed trapped for about year and a half and made it back in open boat? what did they drag and was it from the bow or stern?
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Old 26-02-2012, 23:08   #82
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Sir Ernest Shackleton. Sailed from Antartica to South Georgia after his ship was crushed by ice. There was little hope of the crew members surviving another winter so he had a small open boat built and sailed for South Georgia Island. Endured storm after storm in the voyage including one of hurricane force winds as they sighted the Island. Despite nearly two years marooned in the Antartic, he managed to bring his entire crew through the ordeal without losing a man.
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Old 26-02-2012, 23:31   #83
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
what was the name of that english man that was going to the south pole stayed trapped for about year and a half and made it back in open boat? what did they drag and was it from the bow or stern?
It was a sea anchor, presumably from the bow.


Chronology - The Voyage of the James Caird
1916

April 24 James Caird is launched from Elephant Island May 2 Gale gaining strength for 8 hours, heavy cross sea, snow squalls.
April 25 "Fine WSW breeze running all day, sky overcast." May 3 444 miles from Elephant Island. After 48 hours bitter gale at last subsided. Worsley takes sighting (first in 6 days)
April 26 "WSW gale, squally & cloudy, run 105 mile" May 5 96 miles covered. Best of journey in lumpy swell that raked the boat.
April 27 "Northerly gale, overcast & heavy squalls hove too" May 6 Return of heavy seas and NW gale
April 28 "Light NW-W winds misty, high NW swell" May 7 Kelp spotted, keg of water discovered to have become brackish from seawater, thirst mounts
April 29 "Fresh W-SW breeze, squally running high seas" May 8 Pigeons and cormorants spotted, heavy fog persists, lumpy cross swells
April 30 "Hove too at 8a.m. & put out sea anchor at 3p.m., heavy sprays breaking over the boat & freezing solid" May 8 Noon - "We've done it" - land spotted at last
May 1 1st SSW gale laying to sea anchor & mizzen May 10 After 17 days in stormy seas, the James Caird miraculously arrives on the west coast of South Georgia
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Old 27-02-2012, 10:24   #84
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"laying to sea anchor and mizzen" had to be from the bow if using the mizzen
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Old 27-02-2012, 10:32   #85
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Interesting, Neals book says Fore-Reaching is easier to manage in full keel boats than fin keel.
That's a completely different claim than the one I made. I stipulated that fin keelers forereach "quite high." I'm talking here more about pointing ability when forereaching than ease of management.
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Old 27-02-2012, 16:52   #86
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Thank you for naming Sir Shackleton. I am enjoying and learning from everyones post.
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Old 13-03-2012, 19:16   #87
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf
The above link is of a US Coast Guard report the show the line load on a series drogue is considerably lower then the sea anchor with the same stopping power.
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Old 22-11-2012, 09:22   #88
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

OK, read through a lot here just to get my head right before another passage...you know, making sure I am properly cynical and paranoid before shaking out.

Here are my assumptions:

Heaving to does not mean just backing the jib and lashing the helm. It means getting your bow to wind to ride a storm. You are hove-to if you have minimized motion and maximized sea keeping by bringing your bow as directly into the seas as you can and not charging up into them. Shackelton's mizzen and sea anchor was a way of heaving to; putting out a sea anchor and using the mizzen as a steadying sail and a weathercock. My boat plays the sloop rig version with a backed headsail. His way was also appropriate for a square-rig with a spanker, and commonly documented in old logs. I find that reading ship logs from 300 years of archived material gives me a better compliment to my own experience than contemporaries with a few years of sport sailing and a relatively small number passages provide.

If I deploy a sea-anchor of appropriate size, I am done with any other options that do not involve a pocket knife and a quick scuttle back to the helm in the slop.

A sea anchor is just that; an anchor. A sea anchor will tend to heave you up onto a wave, and then allow you to slide backwards, often not directly in line with your rudder. If you have anything but a super-strong rudder lacking any hint of corrosion or degradation with helm secured amidships, you stand a chance of losing your rudder. In some situations such as near shoals, in a strong ocean current etc... you may will find yourself riding at odds with the wind vs current, leading to line fouling hazard.

A sea anchor restricts leeward motion. A hove to boat (sparsail and backed staysail) has forward/lateral motion. I feel it is not a good general advisement to put that much gear in the water in front of a boat that IS moving. I could see some washing machine action on some fin-keeled thing turning a hove-to rig on the "speed up" portion of it's oscillation combining with some windward tug on the bow from the sea anchor causing a tack. I find this as much believable when the boat is backing after a breaking sea. A hove to boat, even with a preventer tends to become a close-hauled boat after a tack....then you could ride up on that sea anchor.

Drogues become sea-anchors if you have enough of them, but usually they are bad ones. Individual element size matters a lot. Drogging, ("dragging" to those of us that only stick to nautical obfuscation when it expands concise technical vocabulary) slows you down when running so you don't jam your nose (or stick!) into the next wave over the hill. It can also reduce the amount of rudder required as the wave picks up your stern and gives it a swirlie before you need to nose down the wave to prevent a broach, and it may prevent that broach in the first place. It doesn't keep you from getting pooped though. It may be better to have one or not based on your aft reserve buoyancy. My opinion is that making choices like having a half a dozen oversized anchors and two furlongs of chain all crammed in the forepeak affect this a lot more than your choice of hull.

Gang drogues are a method of dampening shock loads by using a series of very small elements more than a method of adding more slowing power. They may be part of a nice modular system that can be scaled to the boat size though.

I feel that heaving to with sails designed for and based on weather experience in the boat is the (*ahem*) "safest" way to try to rest once the give-up point is reached...or way before. I have corked into seas in a tiny boat in a gale using a pocket jib, unable to let go of the stick long enough to plot a fix and figure out what the hell was going on for a 36 hour stint, then reached a point off the Cedar Keys shallow enough to anchor. Woke up in calm with a *buried* and bent fluke anchor, and found that riding at anchor cost me my rudder. I motored in with an outboard and steered 24 miles with the rudder cheeks bent out in a wedge shape.
In the same piece of trailer junk (Chrysler 22) I used a drogue for the first and only time. I had a towel and old companionway boards lashed to a piece of polypropylene line that the rudder had fouled on. I added the line to my resources while dealing with a shredded furler that could not be got down...a result of the fouling and some wicked wind.
I have never tried lying ahull in any kind of seas, but having been on a DIW ship in slop many times, I would not care to try. I'll leave that to the life-boaters.

Anywho, thanks for the nifty (old) thread. Gets the paranoia pumped real good. I am going to go pretty up some gaskets for lashing my boom and gaff to the deck, and get that head cut off that goofy old marconi main for a trysail. My second set of reef points will make good gaskets. They are a joke. I have never, ever been able to go from reef 2 to reef 3. Reef 1 to reef 3, yes. After number 2, sail handling options seem to get restrained!
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Old 22-11-2012, 09:39   #89
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Though an experienced coastal sailor, I've never encountered a storm that required special tactics, so I won't comment on them. The link below does have some personal opinion; take it with a grain of salt as they are only my opinions on application to my specific boat. I am a catamaran sailor and the reactions of cats and monohulls in bad weather are VERY different.

I am an engineer and enjoy testing, measuring, and presenting the data to the world. Below are some calm weather tests I ran on a number of sea anchors and drogues. Enjoy and reach your own conclusions.

Sail Delmarva: Drogue and Parachute Sea Anchor Testing: A Summary for Small to Medium Cruising Catamarans
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Old 22-11-2012, 09:55   #90
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethelwulffe View Post
OK, read through a lot here just to get my head right before another passage...you know, making sure I am properly cynical and paranoid before shaking out.

Here are my assumptions:

Heaving to does not mean just backing the jib and lashing the helm. It means getting your bow to wind to ride a storm. You are hove-to if you have minimized motion and maximized sea keeping by bringing your bow as directly into the seas as you can and not charging up into them. Shackelton's mizzen and sea anchor was a way of heaving to; putting out a sea anchor and using the mizzen as a steadying sail and a weathercock. My boat plays the sloop rig version with a backed headsail. His way was also appropriate for a square-rig with a spanker, and commonly documented in old logs. I find that reading ship logs from 300 years of archived material gives me a better compliment to my own experience than contemporaries with a few years of sport sailing and a relatively small number passages provide.

If I deploy a sea-anchor of appropriate size, I am done with any other options that do not involve a pocket knife and a quick scuttle back to the helm in the slop.

A sea anchor is just that; an anchor. A sea anchor will tend to heave you up onto a wave, and then allow you to slide backwards, often not directly in line with your rudder. If you have anything but a super-strong rudder lacking any hint of corrosion or degradation with helm secured amidships, you stand a chance of losing your rudder. In some situations such as near shoals, in a strong ocean current etc... you may will find yourself riding at odds with the wind vs current, leading to line fouling hazard.

A sea anchor restricts leeward motion. A hove to boat (sparsail and backed staysail) has forward/lateral motion. I feel it is not a good general advisement to put that much gear in the water in front of a boat that IS moving. I could see some washing machine action on some fin-keeled thing turning a hove-to rig on the "speed up" portion of it's oscillation combining with some windward tug on the bow from the sea anchor causing a tack. I find this as much believable when the boat is backing after a breaking sea. A hove to boat, even with a preventer tends to become a close-hauled boat after a tack....then you could ride up on that sea anchor.

Drogues become sea-anchors if you have enough of them, but usually they are bad ones. Individual element size matters a lot. Drogging, ("dragging" to those of us that only stick to nautical obfuscation when it expands concise technical vocabulary) slows you down when running so you don't jam your nose (or stick!) into the next wave over the hill. It can also reduce the amount of rudder required as the wave picks up your stern and gives it a swirlie before you need to nose down the wave to prevent a broach, and it may prevent that broach in the first place. It doesn't keep you from getting pooped though. It may be better to have one or not based on your aft reserve buoyancy. My opinion is that making choices like having a half a dozen oversized anchors and two furlongs of chain all crammed in the forepeak affect this a lot more than your choice of hull.

Gang drogues are a method of dampening shock loads by using a series of very small elements more than a method of adding more slowing power. They may be part of a nice modular system that can be scaled to the boat size though.

I feel that heaving to with sails designed for and based on weather experience in the boat is the (*ahem*) "safest" way to try to rest once the give-up point is reached...or way before. I have corked into seas in a tiny boat in a gale using a pocket jib, unable to let go of the stick long enough to plot a fix and figure out what the hell was going on for a 36 hour stint, then reached a point off the Cedar Keys shallow enough to anchor. Woke up in calm with a *buried* and bent fluke anchor, and found that riding at anchor cost me my rudder. I motored in with an outboard and steered 24 miles with the rudder cheeks bent out in a wedge shape.
In the same piece of trailer junk (Chrysler 22) I used a drogue for the first and only time. I had a towel and old companionway boards lashed to a piece of polypropylene line that the rudder had fouled on. I added the line to my resources while dealing with a shredded furler that could not be got down...a result of the fouling and some wicked wind.
I have never tried lying ahull in any kind of seas, but having been on a DIW ship in slop many times, I would not care to try. I'll leave that to the life-boaters.

Anywho, thanks for the nifty (old) thread. Gets the paranoia pumped real good. I am going to go pretty up some gaskets for lashing my boom and gaff to the deck, and get that head cut off that goofy old marconi main for a trysail. My second set of reef points will make good gaskets. They are a joke. I have never, ever been able to go from reef 2 to reef 3. Reef 1 to reef 3, yes. After number 2, sail handling options seem to get restrained!
Nice post.
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