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Old 16-02-2012, 08:46   #46
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

I think heaving to and using ANY kind of drogue do not really mix up well. Well, perhaps at times they do, but not by design.

A boat hove to will keep its boat-specific angle and give when pushed by the wave. Now if we hold the boat with anything then we generally reject like50% of what heaving-to offers to a boat.

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Old 16-02-2012, 09:24   #47
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

This thread is incredible. I have never seen so much dogma stated by people without the car-ma in the storm survival business. Lynn and Larry, as well as Beth and Evan contribute frequently to this forum. If they want to state their opinions they will do so. And as for what is a drogue, what is a parachute and what is a warp and where should I tie them on my boat when it gets rough (what are you going to do, have someone come out and slap my hand for placing a warp from the mast to the pushpit??) depends on how much I need to slow down and what part of the boat will responds best to the current sea state.
I, in my very limited experience with gales, storms and one hurricane tend to use resistance that has lots of give, thus putting less wear on the resistance devices and the boat. A broken boat doesn't do anybody any good. But that is just how I managed.
Please stop with the dogma. Its just making you guys look silly.
Now if Evan came up and told me to put pepper on my drogue before throwing it out and only during a full moon, because that is what worked for him in the southern ocean I would listen. But he hasn't told me that ...
Yet.
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Old 16-02-2012, 09:41   #48
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Thanks Newt.

I did send a PM to Foolishsailor. I think its foolish of him to disparage John Neil's advice. John is vastly experienced and sensible and thoughtful. It's also annoying to see him saying I agree with something that I strongly disagree with.
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Old 16-02-2012, 09:52   #49
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Originally Posted by Nicholson58
"Fore-Reaching" This appeals for us. You set the main tripple reafed main or storm trisail close hauled. Lock the helm. If the bow falls to leeward teh main brings you back up.s.
I couldn't understand what all the resistance was and then just reread the original post above.

It is obvious that I am the one who didn't read properly. All I saw was the word fore reach and assumed they were referring to the effect of fore reaching when hove. I didn't see that it was referring to the idea of fore reaching like pinching or intentionally and actively sailing. All the issues I was referring to would be moot as these are two completely different things. The above is not a foolish strategy and is not what I was arguing against.

Mea culpa.
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Old 16-02-2012, 09:59   #50
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
It is not possible to heave to with a sea anchor deployed from the bow.
I do agree with you thou there's no sense in your statement. There might be some misunderstanding of the terms somewhere me thinks.
So IMHO:
-A drogue is deployed from the stern. Can be a series drogue or a parachute drogue.
-A sea anchor is deployed from the bow, most often a parachute but that doesn't mean it can't be something else too
-Pardeys use a parachute rigged from both ends to maintain "hove to" attitude for the weather, so it's not a sea anchor..
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Old 16-02-2012, 10:56   #51
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

This is a little bit off topic, but a subject I've devoted a lot of thought to. And yes, I've survived a major storm in a small boat (a Contessa 26) with waves well above the spreaders and definitely breaking.

I think that not enough thought has been given to the mechanics of the Jordan Series drogue, and that has led to some misconceptions. In my view, this device is a fantastic innovation that I would not go offshore without. So far, though, I've not had the (dubious) pleasure of using one in a storm. Let me explain.

Consider first the dynamics of wave action, as very well described in Marchaj's "Seaworthiness" and elsewhere. A brief description of this dynamic action is:

The water in a wave is circulating on an axis perpendicular to the direction of wave progression, with the upper surface advancing in the same direction of progression at a faster rate than that overall progression. The lower surface of the wave is advancing to rearward, relative to overall wave progression. Centrifugal forces come into play because of this rotation, and when they exceed a certain threshold the water at the top of the wave will break away from the rest of the wave; that is, the wave will "break."

So, if a boat has deployed a series drogue line with a heavy chain weight at the far end, the windage of the boat will tend to cause that line to be deployed perpendicular to the advancing wave fronts and slanted downward from the stern (if deployed from there) to a point somewhat lower at the far end. The Jordan drogue has a series of small cone-like drogue "cones" placed along it's length. These cones have their wide opening oriented toward the stern of the deploying boat, and their narrow end deployed toward the chain at the far end. The resistance of these cones is, therefore, much higher when the water is flowing into the large end of the cones than when flowing toward the small end.

When a large, possibly breaking, wave approaches the stern of a boat that has deployed a series drogue and passes through the area immediately adjacent to the drogue line two things will occur. First, the upper part of the wave circulation, circulation that is progressing toward the stern of the deploying boat at a rate faster than the wave itself is progressing, will tend to collapse the drogue line cones and slip easily past them. When that same circulation is lower down, however, and reversed in relative direction, it is presented to the large end of the cone and will inflate it, thus causing a momentum (energy) transfer from the wave to the line. This momentum transfer will tend to pull the attached boat toward the approaching wave. This is a good effect, as it slows the progression of the boat somewhat. The second effect is more interesting: the momentum transfer into the drogue line described here is energy that has been removed from the wave, which will tend to collapse that wave.

From descriptions I have read of people using the series drogue in practical situations, several describe the waves collapsing astern and proceeding down both sides of the boat harmlessly, and several describe a "yo-yo" feel to the resulting "ride." I think the "yo-yo" effect is produced by the wave alternately passing a point where the drogue line is oriented to "grab" the water circulating away from the boat due to the downward slope of the overall line, then passing past that point. The collapsing effect is simply from energy transfer.

To get to the original issue, it seems best to me to deploy the series drogue from the stern because: 1) there is better flotation at the stern, 2) most boats (especially a sloop) have more windage forward of the center of underwater lateral resistance, so will naturally weathercock stern-to the wind, and 3) as already mentioned, it's easier on the rudder.

It's all just a theory, folks, but I hope this helps.

BillyDoc
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Old 16-02-2012, 12:53   #52
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by BillyDoc View Post


To get to the original issue, it seems best to me to deploy the series drogue from the stern because:
Generally, I think almost everyone agrees with you - drogues, including the series, are designed to go off the stern.

BUT you will then be going downwind and there are some situations where you don't want to run off. You might have land or ice downwind, or you might not want to give up hard fought ground to weather. This was the case in the Morgan's Cloud example. John preferred to stop, or slide sideways rather than run off. So he tried heaving to, and found he could not stall the boat very effectively or keep the bow up consistently and so tossed the drogue (it was a galerider, not a series, if I remember correctly) off the bow and it both helped pull the bow up and slow the boat. The alternative to this 'drogue on the bow' approach would have been a para-anchor, but John is not a para-anchor fan, primarily because it would have to be 'too big' to work on his boat (his judgement/opinion). 'The drogue on the bow' worked for him in that time and place and boat, so is something anyone should remember in the back of their mind as a possibility if they ever end up in a similar time and place and boat.

And more importantly, I think John showed two of the essential characteristic of the excellent seaman - understanding the basic physics/dynamics of the situation (eg that extra drag on the bow would help slow the boat and hold the bow up) and the mental flexibility to realize that a drogue could in fact be used on the bow and not just in its 'normal' delopyment off the stern. IMHO, that is THE ANSWER for storm tactics (having understanding and flexibility) not one particular tactic or piece of gear.
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Old 16-02-2012, 14:35   #53
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Hi Ice,

You are certainly right, you will be going down wind, and this can be bad news near a lee shore. But, this is true if your "drag device" is attached at the bow or stern, and most likely no matter what that device is. Obviously, the "drag area" of any such device can be increased or decreased as required, so you do have to pay some attention to the design used. There is, however, a fundamental difference between a series drogue and every other "drag device" that I am aware of: a "parachute" style "sea anchor" for example cannot be deployed to selectively catch the reverse circulation in a wave, and use it to advantage, while selectively ignoring the forward circulation near the surface. A series drogue can do exactly that. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part, but I would guess that the series drogue is at least as effective and quite possibly more effective than other types at preventing windward travel exactly because it can catch the reverse circulation in a wave.

Another issue of importance: a parachute type of drag device floating near the surface can easily be subjected to wave circulation going in one direction near the surface, and the opposite direction at a lower level. This seems to me to be a very dangerous situation, as this circulation could easily "spill" the "parachute" and turn it into nothing more than a tangled mass at the end of a line.

Has anyone seen actual data on the effectiveness of various "drag" devices in holding a boat in place?

BillyDoc
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Old 16-02-2012, 14:45   #54
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Quote:
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. You should check out the Drag Device Data Base site
See the above link kettlewell posted, has some good stuff in it. Now if only we could get someone to run and submit to a site like this a super computer run scale computational fluid dynamics simulation of different hulls that were hove in realistic situations, ie large swells versus flat planes, to get a feel for how effective a karman vortex street, aka "slick", is in breaking wave real world conditions...
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:00   #55
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyDoc View Post
Hi Ice,

will be going down wind, . . . But, this is true if your "drag device" is attached at the bow or stern, and most likely no matter what that device is.

I don't think so. The easiest case is that with a single element (low drag) drogue off the stern you can in fact easily steer +-30 degrees off DDW. That's harder to do with a high drag device (either a series or a para-anchor).

Now to the much less common case of a low drag device off the bow . . . As a starting point, we have often been 'hove-to' (without any drag device out) and our GPS track is very slowly across (eg about 90 degrees to) the wind. That obviously implies that we have in fact been slowly fore reaching combined with being knocked back by waves, which I believe is quite common. I believe a DDW drift while hove-to is ideal but not so common in actual practice (particularly in modern boats). Getting to drag devices . . . if that fore reaching is higher than you would like, you might do what John did and put out a low drag device off the bow, and if it worked your bow would be pointed higher and you would be drifting slower but your track would probably still be roughly across the wind rather than downwind.

forward circulation near the surface.
I can't make any useful comment on wave circulation in practice. All I can say is that some waves are big and some small and some breaking and others not and some from DDW and others from a different angle and some pyramid shaped and others surfing shaped and some have long wave lengths and others are short, all within the same time period in the same storm, so I find it hard to make any uniform/general statement about wave behavor.

My experience has been that drogues, including series, tend to operate quite near the surface, even if they have weights attached. The towing strain tends to pull them to the surface.

You are right of course that a series is the only major device that can potentially bridge across different parts of a wave. That is its major advantage. However, a massive breaking wave might well roll up most of a series drogue in its breaking portion - if you watch the Sydney to Hobart video or the Queens birthday storm video you can see some breakers that look like they break across easily 300'.
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:07   #56
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Fore reaching is a strategy for heavy weather not storm weather and is totally unsuitable for conditions with breaking waves. Also if your main and back winded jib are not balanced so that the bow is falling off the wind and then the main powers up and it comes up again, called feathering, this is dangerous and is a recipe for setting the boat up for a beam on wave strike.

A properly hove boat holds its angle relatively consistently, even if intentionally or unintentionally fore reaching.

I agree that it sounds like a lot of talking without walking to be making those sorts of recommendations

FORE-REACHING is not hove to. It is sailing close hauled under main or storm trisail alone. The Neal's book and lecture recommends it for winds above 50 - 60 knots when Hove to places too much load on the windward shroud and spreader. For a heavy old-school full keel boat like ours it is ideal. The helm is self-tending and you make 2-3 knots to the good. I've sailed about everything you can imagine since I was 6. I was pleasantly surprised by their book on Storm Tactics. Well worth the 10 bucks .

Series drogue off the stern or quarter is reasonable but you are really limited in movement. Neals really favor any other tactics that still leave the boat in human control. I found an oldNovember 1993 SAIL article written about our boat under the original owners while duking it out with Hurricane Grace. They lost the bimini and two jibs. They finally settled on a mix of Fore-Reaching and running off. Their really big trouble was the agitated fuel tank sludge was choking off the filters.
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:12   #57
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

My only further comment on this is that it is interesting how people can completely dismiss a technique they haven't tried, yet has been successfully used by many others, based on pure conjecture as to what might happen. And this dismissal is not limited to inexperienced boaters. Experience is important, but if you haven't tried something yourself you can't say it won't work when many others have tried it and it works!
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:24   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58

FORE-REACHING is not hove to. It is sailing close hauled under main or storm trisail alone. .
Where we're you three pages ago, this post could have saved me from repeatedly putting my foot in my mouth....

Yea, I got that. I totally misread your post. Fore reaching is two things. The first being what you meant, but it is also an aspect of being hove when the boat isn't balanced and is sailing out from behind its slick, blah blah...let's not start this again. All my bitching and moaning was in reference to this not to what you originally posted which is completely different. My bad, if you look up thread I have already been scolded by none other than starzinger and newt

What got my goat up is something I hate about boat shows and thought you had experienced...which is bad advice. A lot of times people are told at boat shows a bunch of bullshit about what boats to buy and then some cruiser or cruising couple looking to top up their kitty come along with a bunch of pretty slides and videos and then dazzle all the marks with the favourite topic of storm strategy. Just because some one has doen a circumnav does not make them great sailors or experts, yet you find frequently people doing just that and the audience lapping it up. Telling new sailors bad info about boats and strategies gets people hurt and I foolishly inferred that that was what had happened when I mis read your post...

...hence the "foolish" in my name perchance?
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:30   #59
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

[QUOTE=foolishsailor;889210]Where we're you three pages ago, this post could have saved me from repeatedly putting my foot in my mouth....

Yea, I got that. I totally misread your post. Fore reaching is two things. The first being what you meant, but it is also an aspect of being hove when the boat isn't balanced and is sailing out from behind its slick, blah blah...let's not start this again. All my bitching and moaning was in reference to this not to what you originally posted which is completely different. My bad, if you look up thread I have already been scolded by none other than starzinger and newt


We oldies call those "brain farts" It gets worse and then you don't care.
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:39   #60
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Fore reaching is two things.
We do have limited language for a whole bunch of different 'techniques':

-Hove to "properly - eg very close to stopped with a DDW drift
-Hove to but with more forward motion (eg sort of forereaching)
-Forereaching "properly" - eg several knots to even faster, with a track quite close to the wind
-Hove-to with a pardey style bow drag device
-Hove-to with a morgans cloud style bow drag device
-Sitting with a para-anchor straight over the bow

These are all a little similar in that the try to keep the bow into the waves and mostly all try to keep the speed down (except some race boats forereach quite rapidly), but they are very different in their actual execution and in what type of boats and conditions they work best with.
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