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Old 15-02-2012, 19:00   #31
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
But they are using it as "assisted heave to", totally different setup compared to "sea anchor" and as they say some boats might need a bit help in this..
Really they are hove to with a sea anchor. This makes sense and works for the. Not my cup of tea but if hove too youre angle is no good for the seas you sea anchor and adjust. Good sense. Differs but good. Point was sea anchor and hove too yes?
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Old 15-02-2012, 19:53   #32
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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That is a bunch of B.S. from people who either haven't used one or who used one incorrectly. You should check out the Drag Device Data Base site for lots of real-world information on their use, and numerous stories of people who used them off the bow (properly and improperly) and survived. They aren't foolproof--nothing is--but there are also lots of wrong ways to use various sorts of drogues, heaving-to, fore-reaching, whatever technique you want.

Sorry, these were all blue water Cruisers we talked to. They didn't say don't have one. Only that the constant backing against the rudder very often caused damage. Also spoke to Jimmy Cornell at the show. He too is not keen on these things. Also, theyare very difficult to retrieve. In addition to the possible steering damage, standing on the heaving bow to launch is dangerous as well. In our case, the thing would be 25 feet in diameter. I can't guess what it would weigh wet. I have heard of some who have simply cut them loose. You have no control while it is deployed and zero maneuvering. The load on the vessel at the belay points is pretty high as well. THese folks all noted they would rather use any of the active storm tactics and be incontrol of the vessel. As I and our expert sources noted, "last resort".
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Old 15-02-2012, 20:25   #33
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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We were reaching just 30 degrees above a run these would team up periodically to knock the stern of the boat off the wave and made for a scary an uncomfortable ride.

We tossed the series drogue in and it immediately changed everything.

...

Haven't had it in without head sail up.
Thank you so much for sharing the details...

Did you still have directional control after deploying the series drogue-- were you still going 30 degrees above a run with it out? Or did the boat want to just head straight dead downwind?
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Old 16-02-2012, 02:12   #34
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Originally Posted by Nicholson58
You set the main tripple reafed main or storm trisail close hauled. Lock the helm. If the bow falls to leeward teh main brings you back up.
Fore reaching is a strategy for heavy weather not storm weather and is totally unsuitable for conditions with breaking waves. Also if your main and back winded jib are not balanced so that the bow is falling off the wind and then the main powers up and it comes up again, called feathering, this is dangerous and is a recipe for setting the boat up for a beam on wave strike.

A properly hove boat holds its angle relatively consistently, even if intentionally or unintentionally fore reaching.

I agree that it sounds like a lot of talking without walking to be making those sorts of recommendations
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Old 16-02-2012, 02:25   #35
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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It's a long answer. Check out the following link to get some answers:

Blue Water Catamaran - Exit Only Sails Offshore Around The World.* Captain Dave - Privilege 39
Thanks for the link and blog as well, has been a great read so far.
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Old 16-02-2012, 05:36   #36
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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I agree that it sounds like a lot of talking without walking to be making those sorts of recommendations
Then you obviously don't know who John Neil and Amanda Swan are, and what sailing they have done! They have probably sailed more miles and been in more storm conditions than any other cruising couple in existence. if you are interested, you can see what they have done just in the past 10 years here.

You can have your own opinion and disagree with John and Amanda's all you want, but to suggest they are not walking their talk or they don't have enough experience to be making heavy weather recommendation is ludicrous.
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Old 16-02-2012, 05:49   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Fore reaching is a strategy for heavy weather not storm weather and is totally unsuitable for conditions with breaking waves. Also if your main and back winded jib are not balanced so that the bow is falling off the wind and then the main powers up and it comes up again, called feathering, this is dangerous and is a recipe for setting the boat up for a beam on wave strike.

A properly hove boat holds its angle relatively consistently, even if intentionally or unintentionally fore reaching.

I agree that it sounds like a lot of talking without walking to be making those sorts of recommendations
All boats fore reach when hove to some more then others. Your comments re breaking waves makes no sense. In fact one of my preferred approaches is fore reaching under tiny main and engine ( called jogging by trawler men).

Fore reaching is the best " lay low" approach to survival weather , I prefer active techniques though.

Your "properly hove boat holds its angle relatively consistently, even if intentionally or unintentionally fore reaching." shows you never tried heaving to in survival conditions the boat does nothing of the sort you mention

Dave
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Old 16-02-2012, 05:54   #38
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Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact to recommend to someone at a boat show that heaving a boat with intentional forereach each as a storm management tactic is also ludicrous.

Heavy weather = large swells and high wind
Storm weather = breaking waves

The only redeeming aspect of going hove is the use of the slick it generates, even though I still wish there was more than anecdotal evidence on this point - anyone with a full scale modelling simulation you could link me to?

Fore reaching out of this slick is the worst of all possible options, a hove boat with a large surface presenting to cresting wave offers no protection from the karman vortex street generated by the slick cause she fore reached out of it.

Maybe they weren't the ones who recommended this so the point is moot, but my real point is that it is a foolish strategy for storm conditions. Heaving while staying straight down swell of your slick would be the normally suggested strategy with the need to correct any fore reaching or feathering immediately.

Edit: aghh corrected some auto correct spelling issues with my iPad. I have read some of my posts and it looks like English is not my first language with all the changes my iPad has attempted to make...
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Old 16-02-2012, 05:57   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow


Your "properly hove boat holds its angle relatively consistently, even if intentionally or unintentionally fore reaching." shows you never tried heaving to in survival conditions the boat does nothing of the sort you mention

Dave
Your absolutely right. I stated that earlier in the thread. I prefer more active approaches and have only hove the boat as a means to delay progress like when waiting for a daylight entry into a harbor or waiting out bad weather that is in front of your track...

...maybe I should stop "talking" when I haven't done any "walking, either with regards to using heaving as a survival tactic...

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Old 16-02-2012, 06:09   #40
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pirate Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

You guys have lost me...
I do know I'll run before, heave to or lay a hull depending on the differing conditions I've experienced to date...
I would not use a sea anchor... a drogue..??
One more thing to cause problems maybe...?
don't think so... maybe I'm stupid and lucky... but as the man said going past the 9th floor.... "So Far... So Good...."
Kamann track...?? Whats that...
sounds like something left by this..
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Old 16-02-2012, 06:23   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor
Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact to recommend to someone at a boat show that heaving a boat with intentional forereach each as a storm management tactic is also ludicrous.

Heavy weather = large swells and high wind
Storm weather = breaking waves

The only redeeming aspect of going hove is the use of the slick it generates, even though I still wish there was more than anecdotal evidence on this point - anyone with a full scale modelling simulation you could link me to?

Fore reaching out of this slick is the worst of all possible options, a hove boat with a large surface presenting to cresting wave offers no protection from the karman vortex street generated by the slick cause she fore reached out of it.

Maybe they weren't the ones who recommended this so the point is moot, but my real point is that it is a foolish strategy for storm conditions. Heaving while staying straight down swell of your slick would be the normally suggested strategy with the need to correct any fore reaching or feathering immediately.

Edit: aghh corrected some auto correct spelling issues with my iPad. I have read some of my posts and it looks like English is not my first language with all the changes my iPad has attempted to make...
In my experience the " slick" issue is overstated. In breaking seas it not much use at all. In non breaking it does " seem" to cause the wave to break before the boat. But I've watched mine and I can draw no conclusions. The way have written you'd think is was magic.

The key thing with being hove too, especially in modern boats is that you can end up at 60-80 degrees to the wind/waves and hence it's almost ahull. Getting modern boats to point closer will always generate forward movement. Usually about 1-2 knots. You are never dead in the water even with bare poles.

Dave
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Old 16-02-2012, 07:10   #42
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Maybe they weren't the ones who recommended this so the point is moot, but my real point is that it is a foolish strategy for storm conditions.
Quite a few experienced people disagree with you, beyond John Neil, just for example that includes beth leonard and hal roth and Steve Dashew. Peter Blake stated exactly the opposite of you, that heaving to is ok for strong winds but not for survival breaking waves.

The Pardey's do support 'the slick' and heaving to (with a para-anchor), but you should realize that they have a very distinctive boat, quite different in both size and design than most cruising boats today. And their design is particularly suited to heaving to, while many more modern designs are better suited to forereaching.

There are different opinions on this topic among vastly experienced sailors. I would not call any of them 'foolish'. I would gently suggest you certainly state your own opinion but don't belittle those of others, particularly those who probably have rather more experience than you do.
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Old 16-02-2012, 08:12   #43
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Quote:
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Doesn't change the fact to recommend to someone at a boat show that heaving a boat with intentional forereach each as a storm management tactic is also ludicrous...

...but my real point is that it is a foolish strategy for storm conditions. Heaving while staying straight down swell of your slick would be the normally suggested strategy with the need to correct any fore reaching or feathering immediately.
...
@ice

You took my posts out of context. See above for what I really said. At no point did I state that heaving to was not a good strategy for a boat that heaves well, but that in storm conditions with breaking waves the supposed effect of the slick would be lost on a boat that is undergoing a substantial amount of fore reach. Also that if a boats angle to the swell can't be controlled then you are setting up a situation where the beam could be presented to a breaking wave which is the worst of all scenarios. Hence, telling a sailor at a boat show that setting up a heave to with both intentional fore reach and feathering is a good storm strategy is foolish. I stand by that and would never put myself into that position.

Mitigating fore reach and also controlling presentation angle is so important to the value of heaving that Lyn and Larry actually use a drogue/sea anchor bridled with a snatch block to control both these features. Which was exactly my point.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice

Quite a few experienced people disagree with you, beyond John Neil, just for example that includes beth leonard and hal roth and Steve Dashew. Peter Blake stated exactly the opposite of you, that heaving to is ok for strong winds but not for survival breaking waves.
Mate, are you even reading my posts? Peter Blake stands exactly where I do and I previously said so in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Fore reaching is a strategy for heavy weather not storm weather and is totally unsuitable for conditions with breaking waves.
Secondly Beth and Evan also agree with my position. They expressly state that they prefer to take active solutions to storm conditions and that when they are forced to engage in strategies that involve avoidance that they will begin running, than toss warps, then use either a drogue or series. Their preference being drogue.
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Old 16-02-2012, 08:27   #44
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Re: Series Drogues & Heaving To

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Why do the makers of Series Drogues give instructions not to deploy from the bow?
It would seem that a SeaAnchor and a Series Drogue both do the same thing and would be to the same benefit while Heaving To as a storm tactic.
I think we're loosing sight of the original question, which I've quoted above.

The premise of the question is all wrong. A sea anchor and a drogue do not "both do the same thing," as is surmised by the OP. A drogue will slow you down while preserving the boat's ability to maneuver. A sea anchor sacrifices all maneuverability.

It is possible to heave to with a drogue deployed from the stern, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to do so. A drogue is designed to run before a storm.

It is not possible to heave to with a sea anchor deployed from the bow. At that point your rudder would have no steerage, and it's that steerage that makes it possible to heave to.

Back to the original question, once again. The reason manufacturers of drogues recommend against deployment from the bow is that the boat will then be moving backwards, much more significantly than with a sea anchor. Boats are not designed to perform will that way. You'll end up pooping yourself in a surge, and it's going to be hell on the rudder after a few hours, especially if the helm were lashed over as when heaving to.
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Old 16-02-2012, 08:34   #45
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And in enters the voice of reason. Thanks. As usual the thread starts to drift once the ops question is answered as it was much earlier and also by Bash.

The thread below may be better suited for the direction this thread has taken

Parachute Anchor vs Series Drogue vs Tires - Thoughts?
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