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Old 14-09-2011, 09:10   #46
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I have my suspicions about this infamous "slick". I have all the pardy books and I know they swear by heaving too. I dont beleive it works at all well ( or in fact at all) with modern short kneels. I would never consider relying on heaving too in a survival storm. Yes it works in storms that I personally would still sail on in.
Agreed. The bottom line here is that a boat that readily heaves to will tend not point well, and a boat that points well will not readily heave to. This is especially true for fraction-rigged sloops.

Let's assume for a moment it was not a troll when the OP asked about "fat-assed production boats." Modern designs that carry the beam to the stern naturally have more stern buoyancy. They are significantly less likely to be pooped by following seas. This is a distinct advantage when dragging a drogue. Further, they tend to roll a lot less than older designs such as canoe-sterned boats. Also an advantage in heavy weather.

I have carried a drogue on my last two "fat-assed production boats," and have never come close to feeling the need to deploy it. My boat will actually begin to surf in heavy weather, and when it does this it becomes significantly more stable. On my previous boat, we once ran through a 48-hour gale where our average speed over a 24-hour period actually exceeded theoretical hull speed. Other than for the fact that this gale completely wore out the crew of three, it was a complete kick in the pants.

The best part of the experience was learning how well a "fat-assed production boat" would handle heavy weather. Never, never again would I consider the old "Lifeboat-with-a-stick" designs to be superior for such conditions. At the point where they are in survival mode, heaving to with their drogues out, we're logging 200 nm days!

Hmmm. Which is more fun?
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Old 15-09-2011, 06:21   #47
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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Agreed. The bottom line here is that a boat that readily heaves to will tend not point well, and a boat that points well will not readily heave to. This is especially true for fraction-rigged sloops.

Let's assume for a moment it was not a troll when the OP asked about "fat-assed production boats." Modern designs that carry the beam to the stern naturally have more stern buoyancy. They are significantly less likely to be pooped by following seas. This is a distinct advantage when dragging a drogue. Further, they tend to roll a lot less than older designs such as canoe-sterned boats. Also an advantage in heavy weather.

I have carried a drogue on my last two "fat-assed production boats," and have never come close to feeling the need to deploy it. My boat will actually begin to surf in heavy weather, and when it does this it becomes significantly more stable. On my previous boat, we once ran through a 48-hour gale where our average speed over a 24-hour period actually exceeded theoretical hull speed. Other than for the fact that this gale completely wore out the crew of three, it was a complete kick in the pants.

The best part of the experience was learning how well a "fat-assed production boat" would handle heavy weather. Never, never again would I consider the old "Lifeboat-with-a-stick" designs to be superior for such conditions. At the point where they are in survival mode, heaving to with their drogues out, we're logging 200 nm days!

Hmmm. Which is more fun?
As I understand it some boats are more stable then others as speed increases. It has nothing to do with wide vs narrow beam. The RCOD, a 30ft boat with a very narrow beam is famous for being able to run before heavy weather and have been known to achieve distances of 250miles a day in heavy weather.

The problem is you need constant tiller attention in this situation or an amazing autopilot and it's pretty draining. People deploy drouges when the boat becomes too unstable (wanting to broach) at high speed to be able to helm properly or they are single handed and can't give the boat the required attention.

The one thing I don't understand is why a stern drouge? A sea anchor off the bow seems to me to be far more natural for a boat to ride out big seas.
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Old 15-09-2011, 06:39   #48
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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As I understand it some boats are more stable then others as speed increases. It has nothing to do with wide vs narrow beam. The RCOD, a 30ft boat with a very narrow beam is famous for being able to run before heavy weather and have been known to achieve distances of 250miles a day in heavy weather.

The problem is you need constant tiller attention in this situation or an amazing autopilot and it's pretty draining. People deploy drouges when the boat becomes too unstable (wanting to broach) at high speed to be able to helm properly or they are single handed and can't give the boat the required attention.

The one thing I don't understand is why a stern drouge? A sea anchor off the bow seems to me to be far more natural for a boat to ride out big seas.
A sea anchor is just that an anchor. A drogue still allows movement ahead though at slower speeds providing stability.
Broaching more often then not is caused by wave action not wind so by using a droque you alleviate the tendency to broach by keepng the boat pointed away from the wave so it can pass under the stern.
At least that is how I have got the meaning through my reading. I have never diployed one but wished I had one once.
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Old 15-09-2011, 10:38   #49
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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The best part of the experience was learning how well a "fat-assed production boat" would handle heavy weather. Never, never again would I consider the old "Lifeboat-with-a-stick" designs to be superior for such conditions. At the point where they are in survival mode, heaving to with their drogues out, we're logging 200 nm days!
+1
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Old 19-11-2011, 04:08   #50
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

According to Don Jordan, who designed the SD, the whole point of restraining/slowing the boat from the stern instead of the bow is that the wind resistance and underwater drag of modern boat designs is towards the front of the boat. This means that the boat naturally will 'feather' downwind when held from the stern. When holding it from the bow, the natural tendency will be to 'tack' from side to side as the boat tries to turn around to get into the feathered position but can't because it is held from the bow.
That is why, when at anchor, modern boats sail back and forth putting huge strain on the ground tackle as they are jerked from one tack to the other. The only answer to this is either to anchor from the stern..which is not that practical, or to fly a riding sail near the stern which makes the boat 'feather' into the wind and thereby stops the tacking.
The consequence of using a parachute anchor off the bow in storm conditions is like being anchored with ground tackle... the boat will try and tack from side to side putting huge strain and shock loading on the attachments etc. The SD from the stern never puts shock loads on the boat as it can only built up drag steadily as more and more cones grip the water. It limits acceleration and slows the boat down always keeping it 'feathered' into the wind/seas. I don't think massive jerks and strain on attachments is ever possible with the SD unless a boat actually falls off a breaking wave. I can imagine a a parachute anchor from the bow easily ripping off deck gear and cleats. A single parachute type drogue being towed from the stern could also provide big shock loads as the drag would tend to be on/off in rough seas. I wouldn't expect the same from a SD as the design with lots of cones results in the drag building up and easing more smoothly.
I suggest a google search for Don Jordan Series drogue to get his explanations. It really is very impressive!
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Old 29-11-2011, 14:03   #51
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

I've read a lot about the Jordon Series Drogue and discussions of other types, but have no experience, only questions for those of you who have real experience to hopefully answer.

In a comparison of sea anchors and types of drogues, they describe the Jordan Series Drogue as a medium-pull drogue which brings the boat almost to a stop, max 1 to 1 1/2 knots in storm conditions, which they say is not fast enough to steer effectively. Other types of low-drag speed-limiting drogues may only limit speed to 4-5 knots, providing good steering control.

But if only a portion of a Jordon were let out, couldn't the Jordan Series Drogue also act as a low-drag speed-limiting drogue enabling sufficient forward motion to enable steering? In other words, wouldn't the Jordon be versatile enough to be tailored to the conditions by how much of it you let out?
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Old 29-11-2011, 16:52   #52
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That's the whole point, you don't need, or want, to steer. Deploy it and go below.

If you want to steer (I guess you're racing), be my guest, but you probably don't want a JSD. Personally, if it's time to deploy a JSD, I wouldn't want to be jn the cockpit anyway.
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Old 29-11-2011, 18:11   #53
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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That's the whole point, you don't need, or want, to steer. Deploy it and go below.

If you want to steer (I guess you're racing), be my guest, but you probably don't want a JSD. Personally, if it's time to deploy a JSD, I wouldn't want to be jn the cockpit anyway.

On several occasions we've deployed a drag device made of a bight of spare anchor rode weighted down with the spare anchor chain. None were racing. This is nothing new - people have been towing warps for centuries. My first time: Downwind, 3 meter waves, 20 knot winds the boat (42 ft Cat) mostly going 10 to 12 knots. Occasional surfing to 17 knots. Problem was the back end trying to pass the front in breakers and the auto pilot working overtime to catch up. Conditions building, sun going down, rookie crew coming on watch... This small amout of drag cured the "tail wag" and made for smooth sailing at a steady 8 to 10. The auto pilot had far less to do. Less wear and tear on both equipment and crew.

An other time we were arriving too early in a foreign portand needed to slow down to arrive at sunrise. 20 knot winds with the smallest of jib and we were still going too fast. Instead of getting there and heaving to, we threw out the bight and averaged 2 knots instead of 5 and again auto managed the helm and we arrived on schedule well rested.

The point here is that a drag device can be much more than an "all or nothing" storm savior and a Jordan series drogue seems apt for the cause with little modification. I found it interesting that the upper end racers are exploring this as well, but my interest is strictly blue water cruising safety and comfort.

Dave L38 #38
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Old 29-11-2011, 18:35   #54
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

Given the size of the JSD when stowed and the relatively modest investment in money and materials (particularly if you make it up yourself), it's not ridiculous to imagine carrying one beefy bridle and two JSDs. One for slowing down to a crawl so you can try to sleep for a few hours in a sort of "creeping heave to" and another, shorter one to just put the boat below hull speed...a light touch of the brakes on the curves, so to speak...when one is intentionally running off.

Or, as was indicated with the trailing warps idea, to "reduce tail wagging".
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Old 30-11-2011, 10:12   #55
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

Thanks S/V Alchemy and Dave, you got the point of my question: slowing and controlling the boat in conditions less drastic than those requiring full deployment and hunkering down.

But instead carrying a both a large and a small JSD as S/V Alchemy suggests, why not carry only one and just partially deploy it when the short one is appropriate for conditions?

According to specs I've read, a typical JSD for a 40' cat would be 350' total length consisting of 118' of 7/8" line, 102' of 3/4131' of 9/16" line. Each of the sections are joined with soft eyes, so to partially deploy, you could pay out only one or two sections instead of all three, securing it with the appropriate soft eye. (Or for additional chafe protection, you could use hard eyes, but that would interfere with winching it back in.)

- Rusty
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Old 30-11-2011, 17:02   #56
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I can't understand using a drogue of the stern to virtually stop the boat. The risk of being pooped is huge.

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Old 30-11-2011, 17:47   #57
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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But instead carrying a both a large and a small JSD as S/V Alchemy suggests, why not carry only one and just partially deploy it when the short one is appropriate for conditions?
The one practical difficulty with the series drogue is that its not the easiest thing to bring back aboard. You have to be very careful not to snag/break cones.

So, for the 'light duty' applications, we much prefer to use a conventional single element drogue (like say the delta drogue) on a simple rode (say the stern anchor warp) which when it needs to be recovered can just be put on a winch and cranked back in without any fear of damage.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:15   #58
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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But instead carrying a both a large and a small JSD as S/V Alchemy suggests, why not carry only one and just partially deploy it when the short one is appropriate for conditions?
in.)

- Rusty
While I understand and empathise with the desire to reduce cost and the handling issues of a very long drogue, I can foresee some issues in heavy weather conditions in deploying only part of a full "survival conditions" JSD. The forces on the drogue strike me as something that could take your fingers off before you know it, and I would prefer the notion of having a "short JSD" and a "long JSD" for the purposes of not having to fiddle with it while it's loading up...and for the positive aspect of having a spare!

That said, I'm sure it could be easily done to create a loop or insert a strong D-ring or very strong shackle at the "short" point where the JSD attaches to the bridle, and thus to have the best of both worlds.

I know one thing: Practice deployments at 20 knots would be very instructive before throwing out even the "short" drogue at 40 knots.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:20   #59
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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I know one thing: Practice deployments at 20 knots would be very instructive before throwing out even the "short" drogue at 40 knots.
That goes for any drogue. You won't understand that your davits are in the way until you've launched the drogue. Best to make such discoveries before you really need the drogue to work.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:23   #60
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Re: Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

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That goes for any drogue. You won't understand that your davits are in the way until you've launched the drogue. Best to make such discoveries before you really need the drogue to work.
According to Hal Roths book Cruising around the world. You must have a line connected to two points at the stern(which also means a good connection point to the boat). You also must make this line 16 to 18 times as long as your stern is wide. So if your stern is 5 ft wide then the line should be 90 ft long attached to the stern at each end, and the drogue attaches to that line at the center.

Here is the coast guards report on the Jordan series drogue

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf
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