Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

[conachair]

Articles about sailing by junk-rigged Corribee Mingming's skipper Roger Taylor


First article

By someone who has used one.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by capngeo

I don’t think 100’ in and of itself would do much. If I were going to haul around a dirty tire, it would be a lawn tractor (small diameter and fat) vs a motorcycle tire (large diameter and skinny). Unless on a commercial boat like a tug, a tire is just going to mark up too much.

Roger that..Thanks

[Boracay]

I've run my eye over what's needed for for a Jordan Series Drogue (JSD). My assessment of the attachment specifications for a boat like Boracay would have led to a fitting that would have been just about strong enough for a crane to lift the boat out of the water!

I put the JSD and attachment points on my "nice to do list" and went on with more important projects, like the stereo and TV.

Having reread the specifications for the attachment points referred to in the link above I can sort of see both sides. It is possible that a smaller series drogue would work quite well in most of the conditions that a cruising yacht would encounter.

His specifications look to be aimed at worst case scenario. That is an enormous breaking wave overtaking from a stern quarter so that most of the weight of the boat is hanging from one point.

It would be interesting to ask the designers of some modern production boats if any attachment point that could actually be installed would be able to take that sort of load.

There is an interesting video showing two deployments of a Jordan Series Drogue. It may be found here.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Boracay

It would be interesting to ask the designers of some modern production boats if any attachment point that could actually be installed would be able to take that sort of load.

How dare you ask that question! The insolence! Etc. All production boats can handle 200 knots at anchor, if it's a Rocna!

Thanks for the video, however. The famous Sailing Dog had this to say about the JSD over four years ago on another popular forum:

"I have a Jordan Series Drogue for my boat. I spoke with Don Jordan regarding it and the specifications for one for my boat. He's a pretty interesting fellow to talk to.

The JSD is not designed to be used as an anchor—it is a drogue, and is designed to be deployed only from the stern of a boat. The drogue described above is a series drogue, but not a Jordan Series Drogue, as a Jordan series drogue would have a lot more cones. The JSD for my boat is one of the smaller ones and has 130 cones on 270' of line. Line would be 5/8" tapering to ½" for the last 75 cones.

I would not consider them "disposable" for several reasons. First, "disposing" of one violates the MARPOL international treaty. Second, chances are likely that you might need it again, and unless you've got a dozen tucked away in the bilge, disposing of it is rather stupid and foolish. Third, I also don't believe you can make one in six hours on a sewing machine. While you maybe able to make the cones in that period of time, you still require much more time to attach the cones to the line or rode.

A trip line isn't recommended for a JSD as it can interfere with the proper operation of it. Retrieving the JSD is an issue since the cones tend to open as you try to retreive it. Attaching a float doesn't really help you any, since either way, you still have to retrieve it—and it is fairly long—almost 300' on my boat if you count the bridle for it. You really just need to winch it in a bit at a time. It really isn't recommended that you recover one until the wind has basically died down quite a bit.

If you are racing, and need to get back up to speed quickly, you could always turn the boat and sail in the direction of the drogue deployment, and lift it aboard as it slackens—however, you'd have to do so quickly, as the weighted end of the JSD will tend to pull it down if the tension on it disappears. That would probably allow you to retreive it a bit more quickly, but it would take some brute force to do so.

A Jordan Series Drogue is a fairly bulky item... being that it is, in my case, 270' of 5/8" rope with 130 6" cones attached to it, and 15' of chain, and 40' of bridle. I doubt that anyone is generally going to be carrying more than one aboard a vessel. "

[goboatingnow]

If you truly think that the typical production boat, like a Catalina, Beneteau Oceanis line, Jeanneau, Hanse or Hunter, is, out of the factory, ready to go into all oceanic conditions as is, fair winds to you. I'm not saying it can't be or shouldn't be done, because people can and do sail all sorts of boats all sorts of places. But that might be due to luck and skill, and not because the boat is built to take the kind of weather requiring drogues or warps.

most owners make small modifications to their production boats, maybe fiiting water makers or other conveniences. It doesn't really change the basic boat, So your contention simply doesn't withstand real life experience. These boats regulary make ocean crossings and circumnavigations. Very few people actually end up in weather that really requires drogues and often such survival can be attributed to many factors.

I guess the people buying Swans, Sagas, Bristols, Shannons, Moodys and J-Boats are just idiots paying a steep premium for more teak, and that the structural integrity of their designs is just some sort of illusion or scam. You've been voyaging. See any Catalina 400s in Fiji? Any Hunters at Diego Garcia?

Well boats are like cars, there are market segments that appeal to differnt buyers types, a BMW 850 is no more and possibly less reliable and efficient as a VW golf. People buy finely finished boats over more basic models for all sorts of reasons.

Marketeers are careful to emphasise the go any where ruggedness etc of these upmarket boats, no more then Land Rover, pitches its Range Rover at the person swayed by the idea of upmarket go anywhere

The truth is of course as usual lies elsewhere, Land Rover have regularly scored near the bottom in reliability in JD powers surveys. Most "look" like they are rugged but underneath its all standard car parts.

The same is true for lots of so called "upmarket boats". Sure you gets loads of real teak, fitted beautifully by a real craftsman. But little in the boats basic construction differs from the production boat. Both give you branded masts, deck equipment, similar branded engines, standard branded rudder gear etc.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rtbates

IF the drogue is sized correctly the vessel does NOT go down the wave. It gets held back as the wave passes below. That is is WHOLE,100% reason for being tied on your ass end..

Sorry , not correct , in a serious storm that tactic would soon result in massive pooping of the boat and its destruction. series drogues, no more then any stern drag device, exist to slow excessive forward speed, such speed, if uncorrected, potentially taking the boat to the point where it becomes unmanageable, or stuffs it bow in the back of the wave ahead, or to control violent stern slewing. All these end up in spectacular broaches.

a stern drag device aims to prevent this by aiding the rudder, firstly by slowing the boat somewhat so that the rudder is not over whelmed , and secondly by providing a correcting force on the stern to aid in keeping the stern aligned to the drogue and hence the wave.

A parachute anchor does more of what your describe by essentially stopping the boat. I personally see no use for them.

Dave

[capngeo]

I have a Gale Rider Drogue. Used it once, just to try it out. Slowed me from 6 to about 3 kts in 40kt winds on bare poles.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

A trip line isn't recommended for a JSD as it can interfere with the proper operation of it. Retrieving the JSD is an issue since the cones tend to open as you try to retreive it. Attaching a float doesn't really help you any, since either way, you still have to retrieve it—and it is fairly long—almost 300' on my boat if you count the bridle for it. You really just need to winch it in a bit at a time. It really isn't recommended that you recover one until the wind has basically died down quite a bit.


A Jordan Series Drogue is a fairly bulky item... being that it is, in my case, 270' of 5/8" rope with 130 6" cones attached to it, and 15' of chain, and 40' of bridle. I doubt that anyone is generally going to be carrying more than one aboard a vessel. "

I realise that recovery of the JSD is not going to easy. You mentioned a float, but is it not possible to attach a float of suitable buoyancy to the weighted end of the stream, and when the time comes to recover, slip the bridle and motor up to the float (being aware of props and rope), and then recover the system from the weighed end, that way the cones should stay closed.
I dont know, have never used one, but its on the list

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by nigel1

I realise that recovery of the JSD is not going to easy. You mentioned a float, but is it not possible to attach a float of suitable buoyancy

If after the scary storm has gone through (the reason you deployed the drogue) the wind will hopefully die down. However, it will take much longer for the waves to subdue. In additon the wind is likely to blow from a different direction so you now have waves on top of the swell. Nasty conditions to turn a boat around and manouver to pick up a bouy and 300 feet of rope in the water without it going pear shaped and the rope ending up around the rudder or prop. I can see winching back on board is going to take hard work and time, but might be the safer option.

Pete

[nv5l]

Here's a case where someone recovered a JSD before the weather calmed down. Interesting reasoning -- worried about wind shift. Not sure it's valid, what do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrTfb...e_gdata_player

[dennisail]

Is that the simple sailor? He is a legend! Seemed to me the only reason he took it out was because he could thanks to a drop in wind. He seemed worried that it would be impossible to retrieve if it got really rough again, and he might want to sail for a while first. If you read his blog you will find out he is a massive supporter of the JSD. He says he would never go offshore without one.

As for some of the comments I am reading regarding the JSD, it seems apparent that many posters have not read the JSD website explaining its use (not necessarily in this thread). Its supposed to slow the boat right down to the point it overtakes the steering function (around 1.5K). You do not need to steer while using it and you go below and rest. However, due to the way it functions dynamically, the boat still accelerates down waves at first (which dissipates shock loads and wave strikes) but it is then held back strongly in an increasing fashion preventing surfing and a pitchpole, at which point the wave moves on underneath the boat.

That's how the multiple cones over a long length work. In the wave trough the boat speed and tow pull is low, so the weighted end sinks forming an arch in the line. That means that on the next wave the drogue will have less stopping force at first. But as the boat is accelerated the drogue straightens out and all the cones gradually begin to pull.

Hanging a parachute sea anchor off the stern would not have this effect and the forces of wave strike would be much higher on the boat and mounting points. The operation is totally different. That is why they must be hung of the bow. Its all there on the JSD website.

I still think there might be times when you only want to slow down a bit. Why not just make the JSD in a few different sections? That way you can just hang say 1/3 over and add more if you want?

[S/V Alchemy]

The JSD can be made in different sections: 17800 kg buy page

Of course, you can simply make one yourself with the attribute of adding only what you need to apply the level of "brakes" you require. Or you can have the cones made and secure them to whatever thimbled lines you care to.



Paying out a third or two-thirds of the drogue in marginal conditions, or as a means to continue on a course while getting some rest, food or warmth, makes eminent sense to me.

While still keeping a proper watch, of course!

[nv5l]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

The JSD can be made in different sections: 17800 kg buy page

Of course, you can simply make one yourself with the attribute of adding only what you need to apply the level of "brakes" you require. Or you can have the cones made and secure them to whatever thimbled lines you care to.

Paying out a third or two-thirds of the drogue in marginal conditions, or as a means to continue on a course while getting some rest, food or warmth, makes eminent sense to me.

While still keeping a proper watch, of course!

I was considering doing just that as a sea anchor for heaving to, if needed. I bought the kit and put it together myself, but never used it -- actually hope I never do.

[S/V Alchemy]

Same here, although unlike a lift raft, there might be a number of "non-survival" situations in which you could use a JSD to slow the boat somewhat so as to arrival after dawn than at 0400h at a new landfall.

I'm pretty sure I have no reason other than an integrity service check to inflate the raft.

[rtbates]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry , not correct , in a serious storm that tactic would soon result in massive pooping of the boat and its destruction. series drogues, no more then any stern drag device, exist to slow excessive forward speed, such speed, if uncorrected, potentially taking the boat to the point where it becomes unmanageable, or stuffs it bow in the back of the wave ahead, or to control violent stern slewing. All these end up in spectacular broaches.

a stern drag device aims to prevent this by aiding the rudder, firstly by slowing the boat somewhat so that the rudder is not over whelmed , and secondly by providing a correcting force on the stern to aid in keeping the stern aligned to the drogue and hence the wave.

A parachute anchor does more of what your describe by essentially stopping the boat. I personally see no use for them.

Dave

Hey Dave you wrote: a stern drag device aims to prevent this by aiding the rudder, firstly by slowing the boat somewhat so that the rudder is not over whelmed , and secondly by providing a correcting force on the stern to aid in keeping the stern aligned to the drogue and hence the wave.

Is the result of this not having the boat held back allowing the wave to pass under? Is that not the whole idea, keeping the boat OFF the wave face?